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  1. #1126
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    There's usually an official in the lead car, facing backwards, but it could be that there wasn't one in this race. There can be course marshals at the intersections, but their job is mainly to keep pedestrians off of the course. If they leave their station to direct traffic then pedestrians are free to walk wherever they want to.

  2. #1127
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    There's usually an official in the lead car, facing backwards, but it could be that there wasn't one in this race. There can be course marshals at the intersections, but their job is mainly to keep pedestrians off of the course. If they leave their station to direct traffic then pedestrians are free to walk wherever they want to.
    On most courses I have seen martials are located in perfect location to get riders attention at least one corner in advance without moving.
    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
    Stay calm and bring a towel.

  3. #1128
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    Highlights of my latest crit. Top 6 placing and upgrade points elude me again when I get boxed in and land 7th (Damn!).


  4. #1129
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Next time stick closer to wheels. You weren't really boxed in, more like lost contact with the wheel then couldn't make up the lost ground.
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  5. #1130
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    crap. I have a response on another tab, a tl;dr one, and now the page is frozen. I can't even copy/paste anything on that page. Ugh.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  6. #1131
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    Stream of consciousness works only once for me so let me try it again.

    1:07 or so - you ease when everyone coasts. If you moved to the side a bit, like a 6"-12", you could get yourself a passing lane and move up hard. When people coast on the last lap you should move up. Extend your whatever effort for 5-10 seconds. If you end up at the front and don't want to be there just ease a bit and let someone go around you.

    It's good that you observed what was going on in the corners but it's based on what the other riders are doing. Since they're human their behavior changes, especially if someone happens on the "good side" of the corner. A lot of times the side to avoid for most of the race becomes the good side at the end.

    When cornering I've realized I do the following: if on the inside I follow the rider in front of me. If on the outside I ride parallel to the rider to my inside, keeping an eye out on the curb. If anywhere else I ride parallel to the rider to my OUTside. This seems to be the safest for me and those around me. It helps reduce bobbling in the corners.

    The last corner was really close to the line. It screamed "lead out corner", meaning the rider that leads out the sprint will probably place top 3. This is especially true for riders without a massive jump. After that last corner there was a huge gap for someone with a good jump.

    I've said this before but if you're not passing gobs of riders in the sprint then you should be leading out or at least try it. You should be losing spots in the sprint, not trying to gain them. In that corner I'd have planned on going hard up the inside, leading into the last corner, controlling the field through my choice of line through the turn, jumped super hard out of the corner, and let things happen from there. Realistically there'd have been a few guys trying to do the same thing so that's where things get interesting.

    For you I'd have done the same thing, based on the amount of ground you made up in the sprint and how quickly you did it. If you did your jump before the turn, coasted through it (couple seconds rest), then jumped for the line, you realistically would have narrowed your competition to maybe 3-4 riders max.

    Finally it appears you sprint well past the line. You should sprint to the line, not a millimeter past it. You should throw your bike at the line in any field sprint (after practicing on your own). You never know what a bike throw will get you.

    In this picture there's a Cat 3 and a former Cat 2 throwing their bike at the line. THe former 2 used to be a crit guy. Can you tell which one he is? Also note where his head/body is relative to the other guy. The guy in red/black at the bottom left of the picture won the race (he threw his bike also, but he was clear enough that even if he didn't he might have won). I'm in the far right, red/black, and although I threw my bike at the line it was just for practice.

    Picture is mine, from my finish line camera.

    I've picked up 11th in a race where the course was 10 riders wide, there was a headwind in the sprint, and the road was totally blocked by guys sprinting side by side. At the line I threw my bike as far forward as I could between the bikes in front of me. The race paid 20 places, it counted for GC to 20 places, and I got 11th, the first guy in the second row of racers.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  7. #1132
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    I throw my bike at group ride sprint lines even when I'm solo. Threw my bike today even though it was for 12th or so. I think the other guy got it anyway, but it was closer lol.

  8. #1133
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Getting swapped like this in the beginning, what is best course of action?

    Any suggestions/ideas how not to loose places on the corner? Sometimes when there are riders on both sides, I feel like I am being “squeezed out” towards the back.

    Any tips on the final straightaway leading to chackane? I am still recovering from cold, so my power wasn’t 100% there, or concentration, but I feel like I could have done better.

    I didn’t even bother sprinting at the end, just too far back.

    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
    Stay calm and bring a towel.

  9. #1134
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
    Getting swapped like this in the beginning, what is best course of action?

    Any suggestions/ideas how not to loose places on the corner? Sometimes when there are riders on both sides, I feel like I am being “squeezed out” towards the back.

    Any tips on the final straightaway leading to chackane? I am still recovering from cold, so my power wasn’t 100% there, or concentration, but I feel like I could have done better.

    I didn’t even bother sprinting at the end, just too far back.
    Around 2:10 I was moving up on the inside (orange and grey), but knew it was too early, so I settled in behind the two guys in red and effectively took the wheel you were on (don't recall if I forced you off or if there was a gap) for a few seconds to before my target jumping point (last driveway on the left). I came off them and bolted at 2:25. You were in a great spot when you were either on me or on the guys in red, one thing that I found works for me at that point is to just go harder than the guys next to me to move up. Not a great tactic, but it's all I have now. For reference to the viewers, we had a bit of tailwind with some right to left cross component.

  10. #1135
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    Around 2:10 I was moving up on the inside (orange and grey), but knew it was too early, so I settled in behind the two guys in red and effectively took the wheel you were on (don't recall if I forced you off or if there was a gap) for a few seconds to before my target jumping point (last driveway on the left). I came off them and bolted at 2:25. You were in a great spot when you were either on me or on the guys in red, one thing that I found works for me at that point is to just go harder than the guys next to me to move up. Not a great tactic, but it's all I have now. For reference to the viewers, we had a bit of tailwind with some right to left cross component.
    Racking my brain I think I let you in. The logic at the time was to seat on your wheel and stay out of the wind as I felt I couldn't push that pace that day. Looking at it now I was already behind them so... that logic makes no sense.

    Hey you got second clearly for that day it was a good one.
    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
    Stay calm and bring a towel.

  11. #1136
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
    Racking my brain I think I let you in. The logic at the time was to seat on your wheel and stay out of the wind as I felt I couldn't push that pace that day. Looking at it now I was already behind them so... that logic makes no sense.

    Hey you got second clearly for that day it was a good one.
    That effort and being sick isn't the best combo. Back to your original question on getting "wedged out", I've got nothing and find I get wedged out at times and in just a matter of seconds you can go from 5th wheel to 30th. Later in the race I find I go up the sides and probably end up being one of the wedgers than the wedged. From my limited experience, it seems you need to be hyper assertive, super comfortable in a dense pack, and willing to bump to hold your position...but again, my experience is rather limited and I put myself in positions where I have to exert extra energy to get in a good spot.

  12. #1137
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    Quote Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
    Getting swapped like this in the beginning, what is best course of action?
    The first half of the video you were just being moved around as is typically done in any large pack of riders who all want to be near the front. That is a hard position to hold and as other riders have said here before, get your bars in front. That has always been my number one rule, and I am sure others agree, if your bars are in front you will feel better. However that said, I am having the same issue as you at the moment and it is just a matter of doing it again and again until you feel more comfortable. So just keep trying, but my tactic other than getting my bars in front is to move to the inside or outside so I am only tight on one side and can maneuver on the other side.

    The second half of the video you were able to get to one side, but clearly were lacking in power, guts, or experience and just did not take all the wheels that were given to you. From 1:26 and on in the video you had numerous wheels to take and holes to move up on, but you just didn't take them and would fall off pretty far leaving the door open, and almost asking for someone else to take the wheel. In a crit if you give some one else an inch, they will likely force it to a foot and then take it, and sometimes easier said than done, but if you want a wheel, make the effort. Placing in a bike race is more about holding your position and moving up before the sprint than it is about the final sprint, to me it looked like you just left way too much space in front.

    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    Around 2:10 I was moving up on the inside (orange and grey), but knew it was too early, so I settled in behind the two guys in red and effectively took the wheel you were on (don't recall if I forced you off or if there was a gap) for a few seconds to before my target jumping point (last driveway on the left). I came off them and bolted at 2:25. You were in a great spot when you were either on me or on the guys in red, one thing that I found works for me at that point is to just go harder than the guys next to me to move up. Not a great tactic, but it's all I have now. For reference to the viewers, we had a bit of tailwind with some right to left cross component.
    yeah he very much missed those guys in red as well as your wheel, but many others before and after that would have allowed him to place at the end. Was this the race you finished 2nd in?

  13. #1138
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    yeah he very much missed those guys in red as well as your wheel, but many others before and after that would have allowed him to place at the end. Was this the race you finished 2nd in?
    yeah. the race was really to the chicane. you can see the guys a few wheels up from Umney having to coast through while the few of us up front were hammering.

  14. #1139
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    the guy that jumps on my wheel at 2:29 (#455) came around me for the win.

  15. #1140
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    I come up the inside of the left turn into the chicane at 2:41... I had been wanting to sprint into the chicane, but I didn't notice it coming up so fast while I was busy watching a dozen riders and wheel hopping. Had to hit the brakes with 18 seconds to go and lost 5mph.

    I've noticed one of my problems is never realizing how close the finish is. Like when you (UmneyDurak) lost Hack's wheel, there was less than 30 seconds to go.

  16. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Stream of consciousness works only once for me so let me try it again.

    1:07 or so - you ease when everyone coasts. If you moved to the side a bit, like a 6"-12", you could get yourself a passing lane and move up hard. When people coast on the last lap you should move up. Extend your whatever effort for 5-10 seconds. If you end up at the front and don't want to be there just ease a bit and let someone go around you.

    It's good that you observed what was going on in the corners but it's based on what the other riders are doing. Since they're human their behavior changes, especially if someone happens on the "good side" of the corner. A lot of times the side to avoid for most of the race becomes the good side at the end.

    When cornering I've realized I do the following: if on the inside I follow the rider in front of me. If on the outside I ride parallel to the rider to my inside, keeping an eye out on the curb. If anywhere else I ride parallel to the rider to my OUTside. This seems to be the safest for me and those around me. It helps reduce bobbling in the corners.

    The last corner was really close to the line. It screamed "lead out corner", meaning the rider that leads out the sprint will probably place top 3. This is especially true for riders without a massive jump. After that last corner there was a huge gap for someone with a good jump.

    I've said this before but if you're not passing gobs of riders in the sprint then you should be leading out or at least try it. You should be losing spots in the sprint, not trying to gain them. In that corner I'd have planned on going hard up the inside, leading into the last corner, controlling the field through my choice of line through the turn, jumped super hard out of the corner, and let things happen from there. Realistically there'd have been a few guys trying to do the same thing so that's where things get interesting.

    For you I'd have done the same thing, based on the amount of ground you made up in the sprint and how quickly you did it. If you did your jump before the turn, coasted through it (couple seconds rest), then jumped for the line, you realistically would have narrowed your competition to maybe 3-4 riders max.

    Finally it appears you sprint well past the line. You should sprint to the line, not a millimeter past it. You should throw your bike at the line in any field sprint (after practicing on your own). You never know what a bike throw will get you.

    In this picture there's a Cat 3 and a former Cat 2 throwing their bike at the line. THe former 2 used to be a crit guy. Can you tell which one he is? Also note where his head/body is relative to the other guy. The guy in red/black at the bottom left of the picture won the race (he threw his bike also, but he was clear enough that even if he didn't he might have won). I'm in the far right, red/black, and although I threw my bike at the line it was just for practice.

    Picture is mine, from my finish line camera.

    I've picked up 11th in a race where the course was 10 riders wide, there was a headwind in the sprint, and the road was totally blocked by guys sprinting side by side. At the line I threw my bike as far forward as I could between the bikes in front of me. The race paid 20 places, it counted for GC to 20 places, and I got 11th, the first guy in the second row of racers.

    Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely try to lead out the next finish I do. I think you're right about being passed going into the finish instead of trying to pass when I'm not a gifted sprinter. Thanks for the analysis.

  17. #1142
    Senior Member zitter's Avatar
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    Video from the collegiate national crit and road race last weekend in Richmond



    0/35

  18. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by collin2985 View Post
    Highlights of my latest crit. Top 6 placing and upgrade points elude me again when I get boxed in and land 7th (Damn!).

    Thanks for posting, love the commentary. It's interesting to hear what you were thinking and your assessment of the race. I like the commentaries since as runner, the strategies are intriguing. My events 400, 800, and XC, there was none, it was run your ass off, and if you were hurting, run harder. Or as Colorado's XC coach said, no pacing, start hard, run hard, finish hard. There is another BF member with great commentaries and like to read what he was thinking regarding his own situation and how he can better position his teammates.

    Keep up with the commentaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
    Comments are appreciated, specially on final stretch. What could have I done to move up? I ended up sixth, and I think with better position I could have been in the money.



    Thank You.
    Looked like the top 5 began their sprint going into the first turn and you and the others started out of the 2nd turn. That downhill looked significant to me as a spectator since after that, you weren't able to get good position after? Were the roads as rough as your camera jiggles?
    Last edited by zymphad; 05-11-14 at 10:23 PM.

  19. #1144
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zitter View Post
    Video from the collegiate national crit and road race last weekend in Richmond



    sweet course
    5/20

  20. #1145
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    houston crit
    5/20

  21. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectastic View Post


    houston crit
    Haha, maybe in the leadout should have stayed on the wheels of the two that passed you and then pushed? Must have sucked having to close that gap after the accident after having to close that monster gap earlier. But man, the two guys you were trying to chase down flying up the right, spinning mad crazy. Stayed in the saddle and just spun, stayed in the saddle, the others couldn't respond and get on their wheels, amazing. If you weren't squeeze on the left, I wonder if you could have placed better, if only you were on the left chasing those two.
    Last edited by zymphad; 05-11-14 at 10:40 PM.

  22. #1147
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    coldspring finish
    5/20

  23. #1148
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    Haha, maybe in the leadout should have stayed on the wheels of the two that passed you and then pushed? Must have sucked having to close that gap after the accident after having to close that monster gap earlier. But man, the two guys you were trying to chase down flying up the right, spinning mad crazy. Stayed in the saddle and just spun, stayed in the saddle, the others couldn't respond and get on their wheels, amazing. If you weren't squeeze on the left, I wonder if you could have placed better, if only you were on the left chasing those two.
    in the video it looks like closing that big gap, and the crash happened close together, but they were probably like 20-30 minutes apart. But yes, I wasn't all there mentally this weekend, and it's kind of a bummer thinnking I could've done better tactically.
    5/20

  24. #1149
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    Looked like the top 5 began their sprint going into the first turn and you and the others started out of the 2nd turn. That downhill looked significant to me as a spectator since after that, you weren't able to get good position after? Were the roads as rough as your camera jiggles?
    I wasn't able to get a good position after the downhill. I think I was spinning out, and was just tired. The pavement is rough.
    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
    Stay calm and bring a towel.

  25. #1150
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Pretty cool to see the pros with cameras, too:


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