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  1. #101
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kleinboogie View Post
    Thanks for the video! Too bad my breakaway partner didnt take any pulls other than the one when we jumped. Apparently he couldnt even hold my wheel so I cant be asking too much right? At least I got that $25 LBS gift card prime for that 3 lap OTF effort. 6:50 to 7:50
    Last edited by Jancouver; 04-04-12 at 12:15 PM.
    "Cycling is primitive. You just have to pedal" - AK
    "I had lactic acid coming out of my ears" - FC
    "I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that?!" - JV

  2. #102
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kleinboogie View Post
    ...Lots more to come.
    Awesome. Love to see Cat 3 & 35+ videos/pics if you have them.

  3. #103
    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    Thanks for the video! Too bad my breakaway partner didnt take any pulls other than the one when we jumped. Apparently he couldnt even hold my wheel so I cant be asking too much right? At least I got that $25 LBS gift card prime for that 3 lap OTF effort. 6:50 to 7:50
    yw. I didn't see that in the race because I was so focused on recording. But watching it later I see how you pretty much solo'd for what, 3 laps? Congrats on the prime.

    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    Awesome. Love to see Cat 3 & 35+ videos/pics if you have them.
    I got the Cat 3 but only the start of the 35+. I wasn't even supposed to be standing much less walking around the course with a camera + tripod. I'll get them up throughout the day. Cheers

  4. #104
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    Awesome. Love to see Cat 3 & 35+ videos/pics if you have them.
    There wasnt that much to see at the 35+ due to the same pathetic racing strategies the CA-Pool guys used again this year. Having 1/3 of the field should deliver a victory but they used all their efforts to block the field just because they had somebody up front and when Thurlow went they were blocking even more in stead of trying to keep it together and win with a bunch sprint. Well, they got podium but Thurlow won again so they got what they deserved .... 2nd

    Good workout for me but no W for the CA-Pool clowns
    "Cycling is primitive. You just have to pedal" - AK
    "I had lactic acid coming out of my ears" - FC
    "I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that?!" - JV

  5. #105
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    There wasnt that much to see at the 35+ due to the same pathetic racing strategies the CA-Pool guys used again this year. Having 1/3 of the field should deliver a victory but they used all their efforts to block the field just because they had somebody up front and when Thurlow went they were blocking even more in stead of trying to keep it together and win with a bunch sprint. Well, they got podium but Thurlow won again so they got what they deserved .... 2nd

    Good workout for me but no W for the CA-Pool clowns
    We would have liked the win but we'll take 2nd, 3rd, & 7th. We all know there are no guarantees in racing (especially with Thurlow around).

    Pathetic strategies? Did you expect a free ride up to the break? Did you expect us to try and keep it all together so you could have a shot at the sprint? And Blocking...? There was plenty of room on the road the entire race for anyone to go around. Just don't expect us to rotate and help to chase down our own guys.

    Honestly if I line up for a race and see a large # from 1 team I only see opportunity. You should have marked one of our faster guys and stuck on him like your life depended on it. You had to know that we would be in the break that was guaranteed to form. Or you could have stuck to Thurlow or Tomo & got a free ride up to the front. Or you could have been on the front and bridged up as the break was forming knowing that the CA Pools team would be letting it go. Or you could have put together a real chase with some of the other teams there (oh yeah some of them were also in the break so they weren't going to help either). There were plenty of chances there for you if you were looking.

    We also can't help that many of our racing members live in S.D. & Murrieta/Temecula. Even though we sent half the squad to Torrance we still had a big turnout. It's not our fault no other teams decided to show up. We all do this for fun and don't tell people they can't race.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    We would have liked the win but we'll take 2nd, 3rd, & 7th. We all know there are no guarantees in racing (especially with Thurlow around).

    Pathetic strategies? Did you expect a free ride up to the break? Did you expect us to try and keep it all together so you could have a shot at the sprint? And Blocking...? There was plenty of room on the road the entire race for anyone to go around. Just don't expect us to rotate and help to chase down our own guys.

    Honestly if I line up for a race and see a large # from 1 team I only see opportunity. You should have marked one of our faster guys and stuck on him like your life depended on it. You had to know that we would be in the break that was guaranteed to form. Or you could have stuck to Thurlow or Tomo & got a free ride up to the front. Or you could have been on the front and bridged up as the break was forming knowing that the CA Pools team would be letting it go. Or you could have put together a real chase with some of the other teams there (oh yeah some of them were also in the break so they weren't going to help either). There were plenty of chances there for you if you were looking.

    We also can't help that many of our racing members live in S.D. & Murrieta/Temecula. Even though we sent half the squad to Torrance we still had a big turnout. It's not our fault no other teams decided to show up. We all do this for fun and don't tell people they can't race.
    I dont expect any free rides and as long your team is fine with always being 2nd stick to your strategies because you will never beat Thurlow one on one and large field sprint is your only chance especially when you have 10 or 15 guys in field of 31. You dont have to be a genius to figure that out.

    As per me, I knew exactly what coming because I have done it last year too and saw that just about 20 people was pre-registered and thats why I went out for a longerish ride between my first race and the 35+ so having more than 3 hours already in my legs, I believe I did more than fair share of work in that group. Even pulled it on the last lap so your guys can jump and outsprint my fat Cat4 azz.

    But no worries, as you said, it should be fun and thats why I did that race.
    "Cycling is primitive. You just have to pedal" - AK
    "I had lactic acid coming out of my ears" - FC
    "I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that?!" - JV

  7. #107
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    I dont expect any free rides and as long your team is fine with always being 2nd stick to your strategies because you will never beat Thurlow one on one and large field sprint is your only chance especially when you have 10 or 15 guys in field of 31. You dont have to be a genius to figure that out...
    So you would have preferred it if we made the race entirely negative and chased everything down so we could all sprint for 30 seconds at the end? Sorry if we sent our best guys up the road so they could actually race instead of sit in.

    If you don't like strategy don't upgrade and stay away from Masters. All the teams play the same game.

    ...

    English:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    As per me, I knew exactly what coming because I have done it last year too and saw that just about 20 people was pre-registered and thats why I went out for a longerish ride between my first race and the 35+ so having more than 3 hours already in my legs, I believe I did more than fair share of work in that group. Even pulled it on the last lap so your guys can jump and outsprint my fat Cat4 azz.
    Offthebackistani:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    Eygot dropd

  8. #108
    i got nothing. Crash716's Avatar
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    You ever noticed the sleeves on Thurlow?
    14 days...

  9. #109
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    So you would have preferred it if we made the race entirely negative and chased everything down so we could all sprint for 30 seconds at the end? Sorry if we sent our best guys up the road so they could actually race instead of sit in.

    If you don't like strategy don't upgrade and stay away from Masters. All the teams play the same game.

    ...

    English:


    Offthebackistani:
    Huh? Can you translate? English is my second language so I'm having hard time understanding

    I cant upgrade because I'm too slow ... but I dont have problems hanging at the back of the 35+ races with those similarly fat/slow CA-Pool guys



    Quote Originally Posted by Crash716 View Post
    You ever noticed the sleeves on Thurlow?
    Wow, now we have two CA-Pool guys to defend those amazing racing strategies

    Yes, he got rainbow stripes .... perhaps thats why he is always OTF and your team is (not) chasing him? Or is it because your team is happy to race for 2nd


    Edit: Since we are talking CA-Pool team I may not agree with their racing strategies but I have to give them credit for organizing one of the best races in SoCal. The Tour of Murrieta is great 3 day event and very well organized! So kudos for that!
    Last edited by Jancouver; 04-04-12 at 08:38 PM.
    "Cycling is primitive. You just have to pedal" - AK
    "I had lactic acid coming out of my ears" - FC
    "I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that?!" - JV

  10. #110
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    So I'm a total newb when it comes to road racing, but everything i've read says that what's described is exactly what a team should do, and should be expected to do, if they have a guy or 2 in a break up the road. here's a link for example: http://www.roble.net/marquis/tactics

    is this not the case?

  11. #111
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    jancouver, why are you talking all this smack? Didn't you get sent to the back of the pack in murrieta for blatantly ignoring the center line rule? It seems you have a lot to learn, if you are nice, maybe agoodale will teach you a thing or two.

  12. #112
    Member Sommando's Avatar
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    Nice video Klein, you got some great footage! I learned two things. First, I see how I was able to roll away early on since we were going so slow. Second, I am not very aero. And for the record, it doesn't show my chain being dropped repeatedly throughout this race. That's going to be fixed by San Luis Rey

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    So I'm a total newb when it comes to road racing, but everything i've read says that what's described is exactly what a team should do, and should be expected to do, if they have a guy or 2 in a break up the road. here's a link for example: http://www.roble.net/marquis/tactics

    is this not the case?
    I'm a total newb as well so take this for what its worth, but it is my understanding that Jancouver is trying to say (a midst all his bravado) that the overall strategy employed, namely putting a guy or two in the break and not chasing it hoping the break will succeed, was not a good strategy to win this particular race given the presence of this Thurlow character. He is claiming that the best strategy to win the race would have been to keep it together for a bunch sprint and use numbers in the sprint to beat Thurlow. In this case, you want to get a teammate in any breaks not to help it succeed but to actively try to make it fail as quickly as possible, by not pulling etc., so teammates chasing can spend less energy to bring things together quicker (and of course, to be there just in case it does succeed). If Thurlow goes (like it sounds like he did), you put your strongest guy to suck his wheel to the finish line in case you can't bring him back for the bunch sprint. (Edit: I'm not saying that is indeed the best strategy, I have no idea, I'm just trying to recount what I understand Jancouver to be saying)

    In other words, I don't think he saying that if you are trying to win out of a break, you should still have your teammates working in the field to help pull it back; rather that they shouldn't have been trying to win out of a break in the first place.

    Sorry if I put words in your mouth Jancouver, I just thought maybe somebody else explaining that might help? (You do come across to an outsider as one who is talking smack because they can't hang)
    Last edited by jaredcasper; 04-05-12 at 03:33 AM.

  14. #114
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    I don't want this thread locked (although I have no vids to put up any time soon) but there are two factors at work here and so I'll pipe up.

    One is the absolute crushing strength of Thurlow Rogers. I think if he were born 5-8 years later he'd have been at least a Paris Nice type winner or a one day Classic contender (thinking a Stuart O'Grady type rider). As it was his peak was in the mid 1980s, when the safe route for a high level US rider was to remain amateur.

    I've seen him twice at Red Trolley. The first time he was "sick" and won two races, one of them solo (and I asked to take a picture with him after that race because he's an icon in US cycling). The second time he was "really sick" and didn't race at all.

    We have similar rides here, although not quite the same international level. April 22nd there's a race in RI and I totally expect Frank and Mark McCormack to show up. Mark won the Philly race outright, one of a few US riders that won the race in the process of earning the national title (many others were in breaks with non-US riders, trading the win for the jersey).

    So what's the tactic? Well, they throw down at the start of each race. Last time I raced with them I was sucking wheel at 400w and they rode me off their wheels.

    Once they get away (not if), it'll be very difficult to bring them back. It would behoove a lower team (like mine) to save it for the sprint.

    That brings up the second thing. Tactics is not about winning only. It's about doing the best with what you have. We're one of those teams with 911s at the 24 hours of Lemans. We can't compete against the race dominating V10 diesels from Audi. We'll get lapped many times. But in the world of 911s, we can do okay.

    There's no shame in racing at one's level. It's why there are categories. We could just as well criticize Cat 4s for not being as good at Lance. Because, in a sense, that's what you're comparing here. Thurlow was one of the absolute top amateurs in the world, and this before EPO and such. Many of his teammates are similarly gifted (last I saw). They are not the same as you and me, unless you are a former international level cycling star.

  15. #115
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    We have similar rides here, although not quite the same international level. April 22nd there's a race in RI and I totally expect Frank and Mark McCormack to show up. Mark won the Philly race outright, one of a few US riders that won the race in the process of earning the national title (many others were in breaks with non-US riders, trading the win for the jersey).
    I haven't seen Frank since I raced on his team in the 80's, right before he turned pro for Saturn. I do race with Mark a lot. He's the whole package, super strong with a great sprint. I feel no shame that I can't beat him. BTW that race will be my first ever M55+ race. I get to deal with more of my ex-teammates from back in the day.

  16. #116
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    AH yes, classic Cat 4 strategy lessons on everything Cal Pools did wrong. The only thing they did wrong was letting Thurlow make it to the registration line. They did what they could in the race, but the reality is that Thurlow does not give two craps about any of other teams strategies, especially in a small field race. He will quite simply tear you a new one without the common courtesy of using Vaseline if you give him the slightest chance. Everyone knew how he was going to race, and nobody was able to stop him.

  17. #117
    Senior Member Nate552's Avatar
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    Great footage from the Driveway series, taken by a guy who knows how to race.


  18. #118
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    ^ He's a good bike racer and from what I can tell a good person too.

    http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...aytherent.html

  19. #119
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Yep, he's a well respected local coach, and freely shares advice when I ask him stuff out on rides. Smiley too.

    I think a lot of people were put off by the post-race interview when he won nats last year. They asked if he had expected to win today. He just said "Yes." IMO you don't get to be a national champion w/out being competitive, and he's a bike racer, not a political candidate.

  20. #120
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikegeek1968 View Post
    ...The only thing they did wrong was letting Thurlow make it to the registration line...
    I lined up directly behind Thurlow and, while joking with a teammate, leaned forward and pretended to close his rear brake. Maybe next time...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate552 View Post
    Great footage from the Driveway series, taken by a guy who knows how to race.
    Great video. One of these days I'm going to schedule a "business" trip down to Austin just to race in this series.

  21. #121
    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    More vids and pics (see video descriptions). Uploading Men Cat 5B now and will have Men 50+, Women 40+/Cat 3-4 and Men 55-60+ videos tomorrow. Upgraded my cable speed up to 2Mbps just to get them uploaded in a reasonable time. Cat 5B will still take 2.5 hours to upload. May have to spring for Extreme Speed (5Mbps). Cheers

    Men 65-90+ age groups


    Women 50-70+ age groups


    Men 45+


    Men Cat 5A


    Men Cat 3


    Men Cat 5B


    Women 40+ & Cat 3-4


    Men 55-60+
    Last edited by kleinboogie; 04-07-12 at 03:55 AM. Reason: Added last 3 videos

  22. #122
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kleinboogie View Post
    More vids and pics (see video descriptions). Uploading Men Cat 5B now and will have Men 50+, Women 40+/Cat 3-4 and Men 55-60+ videos tomorrow. Upgraded my cable speed up to 2Mbps just to get them uploaded in a reasonable time. Cat 5B will still take 2.5 hours to upload. May have to spring for Extreme Speed (5Mbps). Cheers
    Great videos & pics. Thanks for putting in the time & effort.

  23. #123
    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    Great videos & pics. Thanks for putting in the time & effort.
    yw. Since I couldn't race, I had to do something productive.

  24. #124
    Con forza e velocitÓ Forza's Avatar
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    Kind of funny...after today's race, I grabbed my shootin' rig and went and captured the Master's 1/2/3 today..and threw this together. Looks like this is a popular idea! My "onboard", will be coming later...

    The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall. - Vince Lombardi

    My: STRAVA

  25. #125
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    That course looks like fun, except for the granite curb. No room for mistakes.

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