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Old 11-14-04, 09:52 AM   #1
Maj.Taylor
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NYT article: Tyler's word vs. ?????

Today's [14 Nov 04] Sunday New York Times article, "In Trying to Save Medal and Tour de France Hopes, Hamilton Faces Uphill Course", about Tyler and the fight by him and his wife to clear his name can be found at: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/sp...=all&position=

And for the record, I believe Tyler is innocent. His denials do not have that "guilty ring" I heard with those of Delgado, Pantani, Verinque, et al. It is not often I take someone's word in the face of "apparent" evidence, but this time I do. This one rare time, faith trumps [questionable?] science.

P.S. -- Remember to save the article if you'd like it for future reference. In a very short while, it will be become part of the NYT's fee-based content.
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Old 11-14-04, 09:55 AM   #2
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I hope you are correct Maj., he's one of my favorites
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Old 11-14-04, 08:34 PM   #3
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G'day,

I like many others, sincerely hope that Tyler is innocent, but i can't bring myself to believe him, as the evidence stands. This probably has as much to do with all the 'others' protestations of innocence, that have subsequent been proven as lies, as anything Tyler has done. i think it was Bobby julich who summed it up, (& i'm paraphrasing here), "if he's guilty it flies in the face of all we know about tyler hamilton"...that said, i for one, would need to be convinced that either the test is faulty, or some special circumstance in Tylers make up, to believe him......here's hoping

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Old 11-15-04, 03:45 AM   #4
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I'm another person who hoped Tyler was innocent. Unfortunately, this article, which works hard to be fair to him, provides absolutely no basis for disbelieving the tests. Everything I read makes me more convinced that he doped.
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Old 11-16-04, 12:37 PM   #5
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It is hard to believe that Tyler of all people would resort to such risky tactics to improve his fitness!

LIke mayn, he has been a bright spot in the face of all the other EPO scandals and never seemed the sort to get involved in such stuff. Especially something as risky as transfusions!!!

That said, the evidence will have to be really incredible to refute the test. According to what a doctor friend of mine told me red blood cells only live a maximum of 120 days and it would take a suficiant amount of "alian" blood (about a pint) to have it show up in a sample. The speculation of putting blood products into things to taint the rider's blood just don't stand up in the face of this data.

Here is hoping that Tyler has some very strange (and confirmable) condition that would cause the kind of changes in his blood cells that are detected in the test (which are supposed to signify blood from another person because of markers on the blood cells).

As an asswide, if we could only come up with a truely "FOOLPROOF" set of tests we could begin entertaining the "Lifetime Ban" from sports that has been suggested. I for one, would support kicking ANY cheat out of ALL sports (no matter what sport they are in). This would require the cooperation of teams and officials (which is not likely to come eaisily since they have a lot of $$$ tied up in these guys and a vested interest in their winning!!!) As was proven in the movie "Rollerball" - competative sports on the professional level are ENTERTAINMENT!! (and a means of increasing product awareness for the sponsors).
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Old 11-30-04, 06:25 PM   #6
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I too have really enjoyed watching Tyler's career.

However, its very difficult for me to acknowledge innocence when TWO independent tests performed at different times coming up positive for the same anomoly. In addition, Santi Perez who's performance at the Vuelta was nothing short of awesome, was also found positive for the same infraction.

If the tests and methods are truly invalid as Phonak claims, then I would suspect that other riders from other teams would have also exhibited false positives. But to this day I have heard of no one. The chances of two teamates providing similar positive results for the same blood anomoly are astronomically low.

Additional circumstantial evidence is the resignation of the Phonak team doctor.

Based on those events, I would have to reluctantly acknowledge that I think he illegally enhanced his performance by manipulating his blood. I truly hope I am wrong.
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Old 12-01-04, 09:52 AM   #7
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yeah.. like squeegy said: what are the odds, ya know?
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Old 12-01-04, 11:50 AM   #8
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Major..........

I don't remember thinking Delgado was one of life's born cheats, when he duelled with Roche in '87. I thought Virenque was a little shifty in his manner, evasive, maybe....but that doesn't amount to a condemnation, either. Pantani was such a phenomenon early in his career, so determined in recovering from his accident, that his later struggles to recover his place at the pinnacle of cycling were sad and his failed tests seemed like a function of his frustration.

Fraudsters come from all economic groups. Child molesters are not visibly distinctive. Wife beaters can be great team mates, workmates, drinking buddies.

I think you are giving Tyler a free pass because he is from your country, your culture and he seems like a nice person. A triumph of hope over reason.

I live in the same country that David Millar claims nationality from. The fact that he has admitted his mistakes is a positive, in an otherwise miserable story. The guy has let down all cycling fans and all racing cyclists. He must pay the price....and so must Tyler, despite his sometime heroics and formerly spotless reputation.
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Old 12-01-04, 12:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Flaneur
I think you are giving Tyler a free pass because he is from your country, your culture and he seems like a nice person. A triumph of hope over reason....He must pay the price....and so must Tyler, despite his sometime heroics and formerly spotless reputation.
...If he cannot prove his innocence.

If a rider claims innocence and wishes to fight the charges against him, is it not fair to give him a chance to prove his innocence? We have seen this year alone instances where riders have been accused with forged documents, falsefied hair samples, and even poor pharmecology in the case of Brandt.

Virenque eventually admitted his guilt, as have Millar and many others. But not all the accused are guilty. If someone chooses to fight for his innocence, I will reserve judgement until the final argument is refuted, whether it is Tyler, Virenque, or Pantani, irregardless of nationality.
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Old 12-01-04, 01:39 PM   #10
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Tyler's team had millions of dollars at stake. To save Tyler and themselves, they only needed one doctor or one scientist in the world to show that the methods used in the test were improper, or that Tyler's test did not use the proper method. So far, not a single doctor or scientist has been found who can provide evidence on Tyler's behalf.

The test that caught Tyler will be used in every major race next year, including the Tour de France. Every team and every rider has something at stake if this testing procedure is flawed. The new tests will be highly studied, and attacked, if there are ways to attack the tests.

In the meantime, Lance avoided the Olympics, which announced the new tests would be used, and avoided every race between July and October where the new testing technology might be used. Lance has a choice for next season: race clean or retire.

Anyone who raced "dirty" in 2004 and did NOT get caught has a reason to race "clean" in 2005. For the first time in perhaps thirty years, every major rider will be racing clean. There will be no penalty for following the rules in 2005. If Lance choses to race clean in 2005, he will be on an even playing field. Lance proved he could win the Tour de France under the old testing rules. In 2005, he has the chance to prove he can win under the new testing rules.
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Old 12-01-04, 02:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
Tyler's team had millions of dollars at stake. To save Tyler and themselves, they only needed one doctor or one scientist in the world to show that the methods used in the test were improper, or that Tyler's test did not use the proper method. So far, not a single doctor or scientist has been found who can provide evidence on Tyler's behalf.
Interesting. According to Cyclingnews.com's report, "two of these(Phonak's)experts considered that the Lausanne and Athens laboratory tests were invalid".

Where are you getting your info?
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Old 12-01-04, 02:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
Anyone who raced "dirty" in 2004 and did NOT get caught has a reason to race "clean" in 2005. For the first time in perhaps thirty years, every major rider will be racing clean. There will be no penalty for following the rules in 2005. If Lance choses to race clean in 2005, he will be on an even playing field. Lance proved he could win the Tour de France under the old testing rules. In 2005, he has the chance to prove he can win under the new testing rules.
not necessarily true.
homologous blood doping can be detected, but that does not eliminate autologous blood doping. i'm not sure of the exact shelf life of blood, but, remove a portion of blood, store it, train with less blood. as time goes on, your blood level will increase gradually. When you inject your own blood again (granted it hasn't expired), you're riding with more blood than you initially had...it's not as effective as homologous doping, but it still works to an extent.

also, the other thing i'm a bit confused about is EPO. i know EPO that is administered by doctors is recombinant EPO, but if you do high altitude training, the body produces EPO as well...i'm not sure how pronounced or long lasting the effects are, but wouldn't this bypass the recombinant EPO detection? this makes me wonder if EPO testing is more along the lines to promote cyclist safety as some people have died from their blood thickening too much in addition to the performance benefit?
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Old 12-02-04, 02:30 AM   #13
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I've also always enjoyed watching Hamilton. Yesterday in the BERNER ZEITUNG I read that UCI doctor Mario Zorzozoli explained that during the last year there were a number of abnormal blood tests from the PHONAK team. In light of that, a closer scrutiny at the team's practices was undertaken. I have also read somewhere, but have not been able to find the article, that during Hamilton's period with the POST team, he often asked the doctor of the team for medication to help boost his performance. This is not to say that those medications were illegal, but that he was willing to try out new things. I believe it was the POST team doctor who made those allegations. The article is probably floating around the internet somewhere. Probably if one did an intelligent GOOGLE, one could find the article.

I've met a few of the former pros who were caught doping and they are all very pleasant people.

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Old 12-02-04, 04:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelloBoy
not necessarily true.
homologous blood doping can be detected, but that does not eliminate autologous blood doping. i'm not sure of the exact shelf life of blood, but, remove a portion of blood, store it, train with less blood. as time goes on, your blood level will increase gradually. When you inject your own blood again (granted it hasn't expired), you're riding with more blood than you initially had...it's not as effective as homologous doping, but it still works to an extent.

also, the other thing i'm a bit confused about is EPO. i know EPO that is administered by doctors is recombinant EPO, but if you do high altitude training, the body produces EPO as well...i'm not sure how pronounced or long lasting the effects are, but wouldn't this bypass the recombinant EPO detection? this makes me wonder if EPO testing is more along the lines to promote cyclist safety as some people have died from their blood thickening too much in addition to the performance benefit?
The benefits of altitude training are milder than EPO.
The duration would increase with the magnitude of the benefit since both benefits decay using the same half life curve, Altitude trainings benefits would have a shorter duration since there are not as many rbc's as with EPO.
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