Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-21-11, 07:37 AM   #1
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500
Posts: 4,552
Not overlapping wheels -

I understand why not to, but having trouble figuring out how not to. I've done 15 or so road and crit races (albeit Cat 5 and 4/5) over the last two years and I have yet to be in a race where the pack wasn't massively overlapping wheels. Only when the front is hammering to we end up in 1, 2 or even 3 parallel lines of non overlapping wheels.

I tend not to overlap and close gaps/keep it tight, but it [seems that] most of the riders around me half wheel it and then muscle over. It seems like like the only way to protect your position is to half wheel it yourself.

[edit - meant to say that while I don't overlap, it do work hard to close gaps and ride close to the rider ahead of me.]
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)

Last edited by SpongeDad; 07-21-11 at 09:02 AM.
SpongeDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 07:50 AM   #2
Homebrew01
Senior Member
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Posts: 19,419
You can overlap wheels, just don't be too close to the guy.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike
Homebrew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 08:31 AM   #3
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,415
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpongeDad View Post
I tend not to overlap and close gaps/keep it tight, but it most of the riders around me half wheel it and then muscle over. It seems like like the only way to protect your position is to half wheel it yourself.
You're pretty accurate in that statement. The question is how close and how overlapped. If you're a foot to the side, that's barely overlapped in the scheme of things. 2 feet to the side, not really. If your front wheel is next to his cranks, that's not really overlapped anymore either, you're almost next to the guy.

Based on what I've experienced it's virtually impossible to defend a position. It's virtually impossible NOT to take a wheel.
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 08:37 AM   #4
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
If you hit the deck then I guess that's when you can say you're doing it wrong. Until then - Overlap away!
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 08:46 AM   #5
shovelhd 
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 15,381
Stay up near the front and hammer. Problem solved.
shovelhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 08:59 AM   #6
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500
Posts: 4,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
Stay up near the front and hammer. Problem solved.
I've tried that - it's fun and mentally what I'm inclined to do, but I'm not physically able to do it. This is the season where I learned to sit in, resist the temptation to go to the front, and actually get to be there at end. As often said on this forum, racing is at least as much about "racing smart" as being strong.
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 09:12 AM   #7
shovelhd 
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 15,381
I was just pulling your chain. You can overlap wheels almost as easily up front depending on what's going on up there. It's something you will get more comfortable with as your sphere shrinks. In general, I try to keep it to a minimum, i.e. to avoid braking or when in an echelon.
shovelhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 10:36 AM   #8
kensuf
My idea of fun
 
kensuf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL
Bikes: '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey
Posts: 9,804
X X
X X
..Y
..Y

Rider "Y" can overlap wheels between riders "X" and "X" without too much risk because riders X can't go left/right without bumping into each other.

X X
X X
......Y
......Y

Rider Y can overlap wheels, but is risking a splat.

Gosh darn it spacing gets messed up.. So think of the periods as virtual spaces.
kensuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 11:00 AM   #9
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
X X
X X
..Y
..Y

Rider "Y" can overlap wheels between riders "X" and "X" without too much risk because riders X can't go left/right without bumping into each other.

X X
X X
......Y
......Y

Rider Y can overlap wheels, but is risking a splat.

Gosh darn it spacing gets messed up.. So think of the periods as virtual spaces.
Y just needs to overlap enough to get his elbow up outer X's ass if he tries to move.
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 12:04 PM   #10
Creakyknees
ride lots be safe
 
Creakyknees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Bikes:
Posts: 5,185
Good diagram... it's not the overlapping that's the problem, but the lack of reaction time and room when the inevitable squeezes and swerves happen.
Creakyknees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 01:52 PM   #11
sdgrannygear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 324
It's ok to overlap sometimes, depends on the situation. If you are in a line where it's strung out, not a good idea because the rider ahead of you has the ability to go side to side and hit your wheel. On the other hand, if you are in a pack and the rider in front cannot move to the side due to being in a sandwich between two other riders thus no allowing him to move, it's ok to do it for a little bit, just don't do it too long and especially when you are coming up on a turn.
sdgrannygear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 02:53 PM   #12
STP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 301
If I am overlapped (which I always am) then I just tell the guy I'm closest to that I'm on his left or right, or I say, "I'm right here." I'm hoping that he'll now understand that I'm that close to him and won't make sudden or unexpected moves my direction because he'll go down if I go down. It's not really a strategy, but I guess you could say it's a "we're all in this together" mentality.

Of course, I talk a lot to the people around me during crits. I'm not enough of a threat that I'm giving away my position and I'm a firm believer that I won't crash if the people that can't see my position, can at least hear my position, especially in high speed turns. "I'm right here." "Don't squeeze me." "Hold it tight." Stuff like that.
STP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 03:13 PM   #13
mollusk
Elite Fred
 
mollusk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edge City
Bikes: 2009 Spooky (cracked frame), 2006 Curtlo, 2002 Lemond (current race bike) Zurich, 1987 Serotta Colorado, 1986 Cannondale for commuting, a 1984 Cannondale on loan to my son
Posts: 10,754
Overlapping wheels with a smooth rider isn't a problem. Overlapping wheels with a squirrelly rider is taking a risk. Overlapping wheels on a fred ride is just asking for trouble.
mollusk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 04:49 PM   #14
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500
Posts: 4,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollusk View Post
Overlapping wheels with a smooth rider isn't a problem. Overlapping wheels with a squirrelly rider is taking a risk. Overlapping wheels on a fred ride is just asking for trouble.
Therein lies a big part of the problem. I was in a training crit last night with a younger rider who would jump on the wheel I was following the second I wasn't overlapping it. I had the sense that someone told the rider to "close the door" on other riders and they were doing when there was no door to begin with. Damn near road me into the grass twice even though we were sitting in the pack and neither of us were making any effort to move up. Perversely, and I'm not proud of it, but the only remedy I could figure out was to get ahead and do exactly the same thing so that the rider was now behind me.
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 05:37 PM   #15
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,060
kensurf has it right; there are certain instances where overlapping wheels is okay and even safer than simply following. To determine when it is safe and when it is dangerous, you have to ask yourself "how can this person (the person you are overlapping wheels with) move with respect to me?" If you are following riders that are riding side by side, then you can infer that, as long as you are comfortable, you can safely ride with your front wheel tucked in between their rear wheels. Neither one can intrude into your front wheel without bumping shoulders with the guy next to him. Even if you are on the outside, if you see the rider ahead of you is overlapped in such a way as to keep him from drifting into your wheel, then it is okay. But you have to keep your head about you, because the situation is fluid. Your position might be safe one moment and dangerous the next. Dangerous doesn't mean you have to freak out, it just means you have to be wary and attentive.

"Never overlap wheels" is advice given to recreational riders. It's oversimplified, and for good reason. On a recreational ride, there is never a reason to overlap. At all. In a race though, it is inevitable, and as you've noticed, basically impossible to hold your position in the pack without doing so.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 05:41 PM   #16
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by STP View Post
If I am overlapped (which I always am) then I just tell the guy I'm closest to that I'm on his left or right, or I say, "I'm right here." I'm hoping that he'll now understand that I'm that close to him and won't make sudden or unexpected moves my direction because he'll go down if I go down. It's not really a strategy, but I guess you could say it's a "we're all in this together" mentality.

Of course, I talk a lot to the people around me during crits. I'm not enough of a threat that I'm giving away my position and I'm a firm believer that I won't crash if the people that can't see my position, can at least hear my position, especially in high speed turns. "I'm right here." "Don't squeeze me." "Hold it tight." Stuff like that.
Please don't take offense, but this is dumb. With this attitude, it's just a matter of time until someone breaks with your expectations and you end up on the ground. Never ever trust another rider to guard your front wheel for you. If you are in a vulnerable position, you are the one that has to take full responsibility for your own safety and notice if a rider is moving in on you and make the appropriate adjustments.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-11, 06:25 PM   #17
aicabsolut
Senior Member
 
aicabsolut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Bikes: 2006 Specialized Roubaix Comp
Posts: 1,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
Please don't take offense, but this is dumb. With this attitude, it's just a matter of time until someone breaks with your expectations and you end up on the ground. Never ever trust another rider to guard your front wheel for you. If you are in a vulnerable position, you are the one that has to take full responsibility for your own safety and notice if a rider is moving in on you and make the appropriate adjustments.
Agreed. There may be reasons other than "I want to take out the guy behind me who told me he's there" that the front rider has to move laterally suddenly.
aicabsolut is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:10 PM.