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  1. #1
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Why don't more race promoters piggy-back on rallies?

    Hotter than Hell is one example of a USAC race that leverages the existing rally infrastructure, with good success year after year. Also in Texas, the Cotton Patch race would not exist without the support of the (pre-existing) rally.

    But those are the only examples I know of. Are there others? Why don't more promoters do this? Seems to me it would help counter "the death of road racing in America"
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    I've wondered this as well. My first race will be at the Cotton Patch in a couple months. Last year it was my first 100k rally. The fact the race is "piggy-backed" on the rally I was riding planted the seed early on and it was always in the back of my mind as a potential future race. I've kept a close eye on the racing calendar this year around Texas and am surprised at the utter lack of road races, which appeal to me much more than the plethora of crits.

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    Extra insurance, crashes delaying the rally?

  4. #4
    Member qcwtom's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, maybe this is a regional dialect thing. What kind of rally are we talking about here? When I picture a rally, I picture protesters with signs and some guy with a megaphone espousing some kind of political views.

  5. #5
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qcwtom View Post
    I'm sorry, maybe this is a regional dialect thing. What kind of rally are we talking about here? When I picture a rally, I picture protesters with signs and some guy with a megaphone espousing some kind of political views.
    Also known as fun rides, charity rides, t-shirt rides. Lately there have been a few Gran Fondo's which are a higher-zoot version.
    "have fun and be kind"
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Most fun rides don't involve road closures. Most races do, in some limited form or another. I'm sure you can figure out how to piggy back them, but you'd have to get two different organizations (one for the fun ride, one for the race) to organize it and you'd have to get community buy-in for two, separate-but-simultaneous events. The fun ride organizers don't generally want anything to do with racing and the racers will see the fun riders as a nuisance.

    Plus, there is very little overlap in constituencies. Racers generally don't fun ride unless they need the miles, and even then they're more likely to poach the ride than register. Fun riders are, in general, not racers. The way I see it, in most cases, it'll just be an organizational nightmare. Lots of buy-in from lots of people, and any hiccup in getting the road use permits might kill both events.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  7. #7
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Also, Road Nazis think Fred rides will give them cooties.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  8. #8
    Senior Member KD5NRH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Hotter than Hell is one example of a USAC race that leverages the existing rally infrastructure, with good success year after year. Also in Texas, the Cotton Patch race would not exist without the support of the (pre-existing) rally.
    I suspect there are hassles in dealing with USAC that the rally promoters don't want to deal with. Firecracker 100, Melon Patch Tour, Hamilton Hillaceous, and Comanche Cyclone, for example, all have non-sanctioned 100k races in addition to the fun ride. If there wasn't something getting in the way of sanctioning, I can't imagine they wouldn't do it just for the extra prestige and maybe a few more fast riders.

  9. #9
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5NRH View Post
    I suspect there are hassles in dealing with USAC that the rally promoters don't want to deal with. Firecracker 100, Melon Patch Tour, Hamilton Hillaceous, and Comanche Cyclone, for example, all have non-sanctioned 100k races in addition to the fun ride. If there wasn't something getting in the way of sanctioning, I can't imagine they wouldn't do it just for the extra prestige and maybe a few more fast riders.
    This is not what I am talking about, not exactly. Instead, suppose one of the Austin area promoters approached the Stephenville people and said, hey, let me piggy back a USAC event on yours, you'll get a couple hundred more bodies in town overnight, I'll do all the work to handle USAC, and I only need your support and liaison with the local PD / Sheriff etc.

    Anyway, I've noted 2 cases where it works fine... just befuddles me that more don't do it.
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  10. #10
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    ...
    I think you are confused; so I'll take these one at a time:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Most fun rides don't involve road closures. Most races do, in some limited form or another.
    LOL at that... in TX most RR's have a lead car (civilian) and a wheel truck (civilian)... centerline rule applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    but you'd have to get two different organizations (one for the fun ride, one for the race) to organize it and you'd have to get community buy-in for two, separate-but-simultaneous events.
    That is exactly what has happened in the two cases I mentioned in my OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    The fun ride organizers don't generally want anything to do with racing and the racers will see the fun riders as a nuisance. Plus, there is very little overlap in constituencies. Racers generally don't fun ride unless they need the miles, and even then they're more likely to poach the ride than register. Fun riders are, in general, not racers.
    That's why they ride separately. At HHH and Cotton Patch, the racer fields go off before the rally start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    in most cases, it'll just be an organizational nightmare. Lots of buy-in from lots of people, and any hiccup in getting the road use permits might kill both events.
    Well, it's ALWAYS an organizational nightmare. And buy-in is always required (and in the case of a rally, already secured so a few more participants is only good news for the sponsors). The road use permits are already secured (the rally is happening regardless of whether the racers show or not).
    "have fun and be kind"
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    ^^^
    Whenever the peloton crosses an intersection, there has to be a road closure. You don't get to just put flaggers anywhere you want. You have to ask permission from the city or county. This is what I meant by "road closures". Whenever a peloton comes through, the intersection has to be closed to traffic. The ability to close a road or intersection has to be sanctioned by whoever controls the road.

    Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea. You asked why this didn't happen often. I gave you some reasons how this state of affairs might have evolved. No need to get defensive.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member KD5NRH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    LOL at that... in TX most RR's have a lead car (civilian) and a wheel truck (civilian)... centerline rule applies.
    Lately, we've had a deputy leading the Firecracker and city PD directing at in-town intersections, but of course any time a gap opens up more than 5-10 minutes, the ones at the back of it are likely to be stuck without that support. Anybody who drops out of sight of the lead rider doesn't really get much benefit from the deputy either.

    IIRC, they did have a constable to get the main peloton through some of the big intersections out of town, but of course he had to leave before the slower riders got there to get to the next intersection ahead of the leaders.

  13. #13
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    ^^^
    Whenever the peloton crosses an intersection, there has to be a road closure. You don't get to just put flaggers anywhere you want. You have to ask permission from the city or county. This is what I meant by "road closures". Whenever a peloton comes through, the intersection has to be closed to traffic. The ability to close a road or intersection has to be sanctioned by whoever controls the road.

    Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea. You asked why this didn't happen often. I gave you some reasons how this state of affairs might have evolved. No need to get defensive.
    Sorry, didn't mean to come off defensive... just trying to address your points.

    Re: the road closure, that's my point though - the rally (frequently) already has that handled or at least permitted so it's less effort on the USAC promoter's part.
    "have fun and be kind"
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  14. #14
    impressive member badhat's Avatar
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    next months fort collins cycling fest is doing just that

    http://www.fccyclingfest.com/

    we've got 3 days of a racing (TT, crit, RR - worlds qualifiers and state championships every day) and on the sunday, we're hosting a livestrong/local hospital gran fondo on the same permit and enclosures as the Road Race.

    the risk is cannibalizing participation but the potential benefit of permit and resource sharing is really exciting and win win, hopefully.

    should be an awesome weekend, and in particular, a really challenging, awesome road race.
    Your Group Ride:Your guide to getting dropped in Northern Colorado

  15. #15
    Senior Member topflightpro's Avatar
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    Are you telling me you guys don't "race" the cookie rides?

    Every one I have done has turned into an informal race.

    Regardless, massive rides like HHH - I did it in 06 and will never, ever do it again - generally have police managing traffic at intersections. 13,000 riders require that. So combing it with a race is easy.

    The other cookie rides I've done generally have some closed intersections right at the start, when there are lots or riders bunched up, but that is it.

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