soma5

Talk of pie is just too stimulating.

shovelhd

Thanks, mollusk, I'll check it out.

Elite used to mean P/1/2. I don't know when this changed. Maybe about the time USAC dropped the 30-35 as Masters, but don't quote me.

OP, race options are very dependent on your area association and promoter's decisions. Out here in the Northeast, most of your options would be Cat5 and Cat5 35+. Once you get your ten races in, things open up to Masters, although some races here are Masters Cat1-3 only.

Good luck and ride safe.

carpediemracing 

It makes sense now. Elite = "Senior" of days gone by. But, yes, Elite used to refer to just the top tier of racing. All these changes, so hard to keep up. I think it changed earlier than the M30 elimination time, but I have no idea when.

jeebusaurousrex

To add a vote of confidence, I see 1 - 5 first time older guys at at the Cat5 line every weekend over the summer. Some even stay for the rest of the season.

TWD

check out the two early season Sequim races. Its a very good course for first timers. I would recommend the 5's

mattm

Or Mason Lake, if you don't mind some wetness.

Debusama

I know some masters in Wa here who aren’t always really happy about having to race with squirrely 1st time racers in the master’s pack. I suppose they’ll get over it, but it might not be a bad idea to get in on some weeknight C-pack races if you know of any in your area before you jump into a 50+ race so you can at least fake like you know what you’re doing.

Mtn Mike

Debusama,
Yeah, I know what you're saying. In areas with smaller fields, often the Masters are grouped with the new riders. The reason is that it's more important to group riders of similar ability and speed than it is to group riders of similar racing age and experience. Therefor we group the 40+ racers with Cat 4/5. The Twilight Series groups 55+ with the "C Pack". Can you suggest a better way to do it, consider the 40+ or 50+ field is only 10-15 racers?

gsteinb

yeah it always makes to sense to groupthe guys with the most experience and life responsibility with those who know the least about racing. Perhaps your 40+ guys are slow. Shrug. On the east coast it's guys 35-45 who win all the 1,2 races as well. If they tried to combine us with 5s I'm pretty sure the promoter would get run out of town.

Racer Ex 

I've been in a few races where they've combined the 45+ with the Pro 1/2 Women.

They smell nice.

rkwaki

Beautiful, simply beautiful. Remember they still get diarrhea...

bostongarden

A lot harder!!!

rkwaki

There are some older fellas that still have a little jump
My friends have told me that they feel that the Masters and Cat 3 and some P1/2 races are about the same in terms of difficulty.

Mtn Mike

Yes some 35-45 year old's also happen to be pro 1-2's, and yeah that group is as fast as anyone. So why don't they just race their elite category instead of sandbagging with the Masters? The fact is that (at least around here) the MAJORITY of 40+ riders are in fact Cat 4-5's. That's why if you have to make choice, it makes most sense to race Masters with the lower categories. Trust me, except for the 40+year old's that are already Cat 1-2s, most Masters riders are going to be shelled off the back in the first 10 miles of a Cat 1-2 race.

Another way to compromise would be to group the Masters 40+ with the Cat 3's. I guess we could do that except that locally, we race the Cat 3's with the 1-2's. Taking the 3's out of the 1-2 field would leave too few 1-2's to have a reasonable field.

shovelhd

On the east coast if you put Cat4/5 in with M40+ all but the freaks in Cat4/5 would be OTB within 5 laps, most likely less. It would be a horrorshow until that point for the racers, and a more difficult scoring issue for the officials afterwards.

Let the 10-15 race alone.

gsteinb

You can't sandbag if you're racing your age category. Did the guy who won the 40+ national crit sandbag the race? I sort of recall a story of something like this involving some masters racers in Texas.

I'm 45. Should I really not be allowed to race the 35 and 45+ races?

shovelhd

Sandbagging? Please.

I'm glad I don't race in your area regularly. Things must be really messed up with Masters racing out there. We've got 50+ guys who top ten in P/1/2 races and 55+ guys who win Cat3. Regularly.

Racer Ex 

Age group racing isn't sandbagging. I can't arbitrarily send a request into USA Cycling asking to be downgraded to the 60+. My age is what it is. So is yours.

Category racing, other than P1/2, is really just made up brackets that can be played by anyone with half a brain. The structure is vague and amorphous and USAC seldom force upgrades people. It's full of sand baggers.

The whiners who claim a 1/2 is "sandbagging" by racing their age don't like racing against people their own age who are faster than them, and are really vagina boys who need to grow a pair. They remind me of Cartman entering the Special Olympics. They do a Master's 3/4 race and get their ass handed to them, then start pointing fingers at everyone in front of them as sandbaggers.

I race against guys who raced the TDF or in the real Olympics. Once in a while I get mine. If not I got beat by people who simply have more talent, or worked harder.

And I do race 1/2 stuff, but in a lot of cases (stage races and road races) I can no longer sustain the training needed for the distances. I'm old and held together by twine and glue. Plus I think taking a spot on a 1/2 team at my age might keep some kid who could turn out to be something from getting the support he needs.

rkwaki

We have a couple ourselves. We have many 40+ that are P1/2 beasts as well.
Sandbagging is a tough term to throw around. I have a friend who is 50 and won 17 of the 29 races he entered this year (entered the 50+) - he could easily race his category and do well as he is bar none one of the best climbers I have ever ridden with (6'1" - 148-150 pounds, former marathon runner and tri guy) - when we climb the steep stuff I am zone 5 chasing his scrawny a$$ but he chooses to compete against guys his own age and with similar life circumstances. We also have guys (per my post to racer) that are in their mid-late 50's that still race P1 and do well (top 10). It's all relative and I agree with shovel - must be messed up out west.

Mtn Mike

Messed up because the Masters can't hang with the 1-2's? Maybe so, but we work with the population that we have. We're seeing more and more 40+and 50+ racers entering the sport for the first time (which is what this thread is about). We're doing all we can to bring them into the sport. If you're suggesting that 40-50+ Masters fields race with the 1-2's, I really don't know what to say except wow, Masters racing must be different in your area.

gsteinb

I hink what's being suggested is that 40-50 year old guys belong racing with with the 4/5s if they're new racers. Masters racing is supposed to be hard.

rkwaki

No I think what Shovel is suggesting is that you can race whatever you're allowed to not that the Masters race with the 1-2 but that there are many 1-2 that can race Masters (myself included) and are not sandbagging.

Mtn Mike

I agree with this suggestion, and in fact that's what we're doing. Since the majority of those in our 40/50+ Master fields are Cat 4 or Cat 5, they are racing with the Cat 4/5's. We do have 40/50+ year olds that are Cat 1/2/3's. Most of them chose to race in their elite category.

If the suggestion is that ALL Masters, including new racers, race with the P/1/2's because they are fast enough to compete, you are living in a fantasy world. In districts with a bigger population of racers another option becomes separating the Masters by elite category (Masters 1/2, Masters 3/4 etc), breaking them down by age even further (M30+, 35+, 40+, 45+ etc) OR, restricting the Masters fields to elite 1-3. This isn't a bad idea if you have more racers. But in our area would result in some grumbling among the new racers who just want to race with the people they ride with normally.

There's no perfect solution in Masters racing. We don't expect to please everyone all the time. But we try to accommodate as many people that we can. This is true throughout the northwest, as anyone who reads the WSBA list serve can attest to.

Racer Ex 

In N. California there are 35+ 4/5 and 45+ 4/5 races offered at a lot of events. Most actually.

A few years ago I looked at the revenue stream from the various Master's category riders in masters races. While the majority of those guys were 3/4/5, they produced about the same amount of yearly entry revenue as the 1/2's. 3/4/5 guys would do 5-6 races a year, the 1/2's would do 30 or more.

You can pander to the entry level guys all you want, but your core group that shows up race after race is the same people you say are sandbagging. That you're blinded by licensing numbers is the same myopia I've run into over and over.

And if you're really interested in retaining those 40+ newbies, you'd provide a lot of clinics and rider education which minimizes the crashes and confusion that seems to run rampant with handing kindergarteners books of matches and expecting a good outcome.

It's part of the reason why Northern California fills the fields above and also has a robust Masters 1/2/3 turnout.

gsteinb

reading isn't your strong suit, is it?