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50YO and racing

Old 01-05-12, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
reading isn't your strong suit, is it?
gteinb foot meet mtn mike ballsack...
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Old 01-05-12, 12:27 PM
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gsteinb and rkwaki said essentially what I meant. Masters should never be forced to race with Cat5's unless they are Cat5's themselves. Out here we don't even call them Masters, they're Cat5 35+, 45+ or whatever. Most Masters races here are Cat1-4 only with a few Cat1-3 only. The only time I want to be in the same field as a Cat5 is if I am mentoring them as part of a clinic. Club/group rides don't count. Anyone can be an idiot on those.

What you folks are doing out there is dangerous. You are grouping racers with a wide variety of ability, from zero to world class, because of some perceived notion that they'll race at the same speed. That's putting the promoter's interests over safety.
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Old 01-05-12, 12:29 PM
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Well no, because the fast guys opt to race the elite races, only, because they don't want to race with the 4s and 5s.

Out here I try to win the age category stuff then mix it up in the 1,2, or 1,2,3 race.
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Old 01-05-12, 12:34 PM
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I'll say it...
I'm a pitbull when I race and don't put up with much. I would be scared for another rider's safety if we were in the same field and he was being a jit bag - I have given guys warnings in the past - told a guy last year that I was going to put him into someone's front porch if he kept his crap up. Remember it's not only my size but experience that you must factor in.

Not sure of the best way to do it but new racers, regardless of age should be racing with the 5's.
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Old 01-05-12, 12:36 PM
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such a bully.
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Old 01-05-12, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hammy56
such a bully.
You got it baby.
I have actually apologized to many (including USA cycling) for some of my antics in the past. There have been times where my ego and temper have gotten the best of me. I was pulling a group along once and moved the line over a little. Some jit bag started yelling at me "don't you chop me you c^nt or I'll fn wreck you" - so I proceeded to move him within 12" of the curb while he went ballistic. Some of the guys who know me subsequently went and had a chat with him to tell him to relax before he got hurt. Oh btw he got blown off the back a few laps later.
It's not that I am a bully but per previous posts I want to win and don't put up with anything.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:03 PM
  #57  
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Wow, I'm sorry I offended so many Masters. We go through the same heated discussions on the WA State list serve with the same predictable results. I know, no Master likes to be called a sandbagger, and everyone wants a "fair" race. Unfortunately this rarely happens in any area.

Originally Posted by Racer Ex
In California there are 35+ 4/5 and 45+ 4/5 races offered at a lot of events. Most actually.

A few years ago I looked at the revenue stream from the various Master's category riders in masters races. While the majority of those guys were 3/4/5, they produced about the same amount of yearly entry revenue as the 1/2's. 3/4/5 guys would do 5-6 races a year, the 1/2's would do 30 or more.

You can pander to the entry level guys all you want, but your core group that shows up race after race is the same people you say are sandbagging.
In an ideal world I guess that everyone over 30 would race against people in their same age bracket, AND their same category (Masters 30-35+ Cat 1/2, Masters 30-35+ Cat 3, Master 30-35+ Cat 4, Masters 30-35+ Cat 5....Masters 45-50+ Cat 1/2, Master 45-50+ Cat 3, Master 45-50+ Cat 4, Master 45-50+ Cat 5....Masters 50-55+ Cat 1/2, Master 50-55+ Cat e3, and so on and on and on). I assume that Southern California and other larger metro areas have enough racers to consider breaking down races in such fashion.

Originally Posted by rkwaki
No I think what Shovel is suggesting is that you can race whatever you're allowed to not that the Masters race with the 1-2 but that there are many 1-2 that can race Masters (myself included) and are not sandbagging.
You can race with the Elite 1-2's, or you can race with the Masters open field. No one is telling any Elite racer that he/she cant race in their elite category. I suspect that what you would like is a Masters (insert your age) 1/2 field. Yes, in an area with a big enough population of racers, this would be great. In my area you'd be racing with one or two other racers on a consistent basis.

Originally Posted by gsteinb
reading isn't your strong suit, is it?
Yes in an ideal world, Masters would race in a "Master (insert your age), Cat (insert your category) field". Unfortunately this doesn't happen. So which way do you want it? Should Master 1-2's race with Elite 1-2's, should Master 1-2's have to race "down" with Elite Cat 3's, or god give you strength, Elite cat 4-5's?

In our area we have made the choice to have open (cat 1-5) Masters fields because that seems to accommodate the most racers. We race the Masters 40+ with the Elite 4/5's and they're scored separately (maybe I wasn't clear on this before), and we race the Masters 50+ with the Masters 60+ (both scored separately).

Seriously, as a small-time grassroots race promoter and an as an official, I'm asking for better suggestions on how to set up our fields. So far I haven't seen a good argument one way or another. The Masters saga continues.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:13 PM
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Another option that I've thought about is racing all of the open Master's fields together (but still score them separately). So, Masters 40+, 50+, 60+ racing together, but scored separately. This might make the racing safer for the Masters 40+ because they don't have to race with the Elite 4/5 kids. However, I'm not sure about this because there are still plenty of squirely Cat 5 40+/50+/60+ racers out there. This may work better if we restricted the Masters to Cat 1-4. But again this exclude a lot of our new Masters racers.

Last edited by Mtn Mike; 01-05-12 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mtn Mike
Wow, I'm sorry I offended so many Masters. We go through the same heated discussions on the WA State list serve with the same predictable results. I know, no Master likes to be called a sandbagger, and everyone wants a "fair" race. Unfortunately this rarely happens in any area.



In an ideal world I guess that everyone over 30 would race against people in their same age bracket, AND their same category (Masters 30-35+ Cat 1/2, Masters 30-35+ Cat 3, Master 30-35+ Cat 4, Masters 30-35+ Cat 5....Masters 45-50+ Cat 1/2, Master 45-50+ Cat 3, Master 45-50+ Cat 4, Master 45-50+ Cat 5....Masters 50-55+ Cat 1/2, Master 50-55+ Cat e3, and so on and on and on). I assume that Southern California and other larger metro areas have enough racers to consider breaking down races in such fashion.



You can race with the Elite 1-2's, or you can race with the Masters open field. No one is telling any Elite racer that he/she cant race in their elite category. I suspect that what you would like is a Masters (insert your age) 1/2 field. Yes, in an area with a big enough population of racers, this would be great. In my area you'd be racing with one or two other racers on a consistent basis.



Yes in an ideal world, Masters would race in a "Master (insert your age), Cat (insert your category) field". Unfortunately this doesn't happen. So which way do you want it? Should Master 1-2's race with Elite 1-2's, should Master 1-2's have to race "down" with Elite Cat 3's, or god give you strength, Elite cat 4-5's?

In our area we have made the choice to have open (cat 1-5) Masters fields because that seems to accommodate the most racers. We race the Masters 40+ with the Elite 4/5's and they're scored separately (maybe I wasn't clear on this before), and we race the Masters 50+ with the Masters 60+ (both scored separately).

Seriously, as a small-time grassroots race promoter and an as an official, I'm asking for better suggestions on how to set up our fields. So far I haven't seen a good argument one way or another. The Masters saga continues.
Oh, I don't know. Being a 44 year old Cat 3 in NorCal means I regularly get shelled by a teenager in the morning and then by his dad in the afternoon. Wouldn't have it any other way.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:18 PM
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I had to calm down before replying.

Masters who choose to race in their category in addition to/in place of their age group are not sandbaggers. You are distorting the meaning of the term.

Your ideal world scenario is not going to happen until the sport experiences significant growth in the lower categories which will trickle up. It's not realistic, so please stop using it as a red herring.

Let me spell it out for you. There should be no Cat5's racing with Cat1-4 Masters. Let me repeat for clarification.

There should be no Cat5's racing with Cat1-4 Masters.

Masters should be Cat1-4 only. Anyone that wants to race Masters should do their ten first. That's the way it is out here, and we have a very large, very experienced, and very active Masters contingent to serve as an example to you.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mtn Mike
But again this exclude a lot of our new Masters racers.
Make them do their ten first. Problem solved.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mtn Mike
Wow, I'm sorry I offended so many Masters...I know, no Master likes to be called a sandbagger
And yet you trotted it out.

Originally Posted by Mtn Mike
and everyone wants a "fair" race.
No, they don't. Some people want a race that, as long as they finish well, they could give a rat's ass about fairness.

BTW, it's Northern California that's filling 45+ 4/5 fields. I edited my post to include that later. But my training paradigm stands.

Originally Posted by caloso
Oh, I don't know. Being a 44 year old Cat 3 in NorCal means I regularly get shelled by a teenager in the morning and then by his dad in the afternoon.
Be glad I didn't reproduce
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Old 01-05-12, 01:53 PM
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Keep in mind that (unless the rules changed for 2012) if you put Cat 5s in a race, you're limited to 75 racers. (Cat 5s alone are limited to 50 racers). Any Cat blank-blank-5 race automatically has a field limit of 75.

I think that Masters races ought to be treated like Cat 3 races for upgrade purposes. I suppose with the new ranking system it'll be more accurate, but there are many, many Cat 3 Masters that ought to be Cat 2s. Upgrading them would limit them from picking on the hapless Cat 3s after sweeping a Masters race or two.

What this would do is force really good Cat 3 Masters to upgrade to Cat 2. Former Olympians shouldn't be Cat 3s, nor should current national champions.

I've raced in Cat 3 races with three current national crit champions in various age grades. I think that's not fair, but that's the way it gets handled for good Masters racers. One won the 45+, got second the 35+, and won the 3s. And he was disappointed to have lost the 35+. He's one of the guys who has multiple national championships (in crit and on the track) yet he's been a 3 forever (20 years?).

(On a side note I think any national champion should immediately be upgraded to Cat 2 minimum).

I think some compromise would work, similar to women racing lower category races. A woman has a 10 year adjustment on age and 1-2 categories for Category. A Cat 1 woman can race Cat 3 mens, and a 35 year old woman can race in the M45+ race.

With similar adjustments maybe a 50+ Cat 2 can do maybe a Cat 3 race but a 35+ Cat 2 can't.

I know that I can hold my own with 55+ racers that are pretty good (recent national champs), but the 45+ kill it. 35+ are stupid fast.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
And yet you trotted it out.


Originally Posted by shovelhd
Make them do their ten first. Problem solved.
That's one good solution. Okay we're getting closer to solving the problem of Masters racing. So to the original poster who is a new 55 year old racer, and asking which field to enter, we'd say, "Race in the only field you're eligible for, the Cat 5's". Based on my experience in WA State and more locally in Spokane, this might be a hard sell. But I'm going to talk to some of the WSBA people and see what they think about that change.

As a 37 year old Cat 3 who's both slow for my age AND my category, I really consider myself a neutral party in the discussion. But as an official and a race promoter I just want to make the sport as accessible as possible for everyone.

Last edited by Mtn Mike; 01-05-12 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 01-05-12, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mtn Mike




That's one good solution. Okay we're getting closer to solving the problem of Masters racing. So to the original poster who is a new 55 year old racer, and asking which field to enter, we'd say, "Race in the only field you're eligible for, the Cat 5's". Based on my experience in WA State and more locally in Spokane, this might be a hard sell. But I'm going to talk to some of the WSBA people and see what they think about that change.

As a 37 year old who's both slow for my age AND my category, I really consider myself a neutral party in the discussion. But as an official and a race promoter I just want to make the sport as accessible as possible for everyone.
Great response.
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Old 01-05-12, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rkwaki
I'll say it...
I'm a pitbull when I race and don't put up with much. I would be scared for another rider's safety if we were in the same field and he was being a jit bag - I have given guys warnings in the past - told a guy last year that I was going to put him into someone's front porch if he kept his crap up. Remember it's not only my size but experience that you must factor in.

Not sure of the best way to do it but new racers, regardless of age should be racing with the 5's.
Would there be lemonade or iced tea with cookies waiting for us on that porch?
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Old 01-05-12, 02:08 PM
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It shouldn't matter how it is received, really. Change is tough for everyone.

Promoters and officials should always put the safety of the racers above everything else. You'll never convince me that putting new racers in the same field as P/1/2's is prioritizing safety. Talk about a hard sell.

Good point about field sizes, cdr, at least for USAC races. I don't think they apply to his WSBA races, though.
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Old 01-05-12, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bostongarden
Would there be lemonade or iced tea with cookies waiting for us on that porch?
On the table, between the pit bulls.
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Old 01-05-12, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing

What this would do is force really good Cat 3 Masters to upgrade to Cat 2. Former Olympians shouldn't be Cat 3s, nor should current national champions.
I'm OK with your proposal, which is really addressing the sandbagging issue that started this whole discussion. But I tell ya, when you beat them, and beat them handily, it is doubly rewarding.
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Old 01-05-12, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bostongarden
Would there be lemonade or iced tea with cookies waiting for us on that porch?
Well you would be in "Time Out" for being naughty so there is no snack time.
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Old 01-05-12, 02:19 PM
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Me (ok, copying someone): Hey, Rkwaki, you want a piece of me? You want a piece of me?!!!
Rkwaki: You talkin' to me? (Starts to walk over in my direction.)
Me: You don't scare me.
Rkwaki: (Grinning, but, looking scary, picks up his pace and is soon within a few feet of me; looks up in the air, and, sounding a bit like Jack Nicholson from A Few Good Men) I'm talking to you son.
Me: (I quickly grab Shovel and thrust him in front of me.) Yeah, let's see how tough you are now big boy! (Thinking to self: get me outta here.)
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Old 01-05-12, 02:21 PM
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Old 01-05-12, 02:24 PM
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Old 01-05-12, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bostongarden
Me (ok, copying someone): Hey, Rkwaki, you want a piece of me? You want a piece of me?!!!
Rkwaki: You talkin' to me? (Starts to walk over in my direction.)
Me: You don't scare me.
Rkwaki: (Grinning, but, looking scary, picks up his pace and is soon within a few feet of me; looks up in the air, and, sounding a bit like Jack Nicholson from A Few Good Men) I'm talking to you son.
Me: (I quickly grab Shovel and thrust him in front of me.) Yeah, let's see how tough you are now big boy! (Thinking to self: get me outta here.)
And that 140 pounds would scare me to death...
I had this portrait done at the fair last summer though my calves were a little smaller...
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Old 01-05-12, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bostongarden
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