Elite racing, past and present...
02-28-12, 08:32 PM
#26
out walking the earth
it's a good question. clearly most of our domestic pros would get spanked in Europe. Heck most domestic teams can't get an invite to the prestigious domestic UCI racers. Of course, several US racers are amongst the best in the world so perhaps we are doing pretty good.
02-28-12, 08:46 PM
#27
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Well the system is a lot more than just upgrade rules. In the early 80's the focus was on the LA Games. USAC (then the USCF) was primarily focused on grassroots racing in the Districts. Riders in the Districts got invitations to the OTC in Colorado. The grassroots fed the OTC, and the OTC fed the Olympics, and at much smaller scale, the pros. At some point after I left the sport the focus of USAC turned primarily to developing riders on the world class stage. Nowadays I believe that this is the sole focus of USAC; that the grassroots is only the cash cow that makes it possible.
02-28-12, 08:48 PM
#28
Senior Member
I think the US has a better environment for racers overall. There's more opportunity.
Are there better racers? I think that's pretty relative. I think before the early 90s it was easier to spot talent because any shortcuts didn't make up a huge difference. In other words you couldn't get a Cat 3, add a ton of EPO, and turn him into a Pro. Back then it was speed/amphetamines, coke, stuff like that. I had a Cat 4 (!!!!) teammate carted away in an ambulance when he had some problems with some speed he took before a 100 mile state road race (I dunno what he was thinking). I think he was having convulsions or something serious. Anyway, back then, a rider could only cheat a little, with nothing like EPO out there. There was no money, no nothing. $500 a month was great, about what Lemond got for his first contract. Even I, a pit slave in a bike shop, could make that money. A Junior World Champion with the most potential of any racer out there for the same amount? Crazy.
Talent comes from chance plus opportunity. Chance/genetics gives you the physiological body. Opportunity and luck put that person on a bike, not in a heroin addict's alley, in front of a dump truck that just lost its brakes, or driving down the interstate at 120 mph with a BAC of .21.
Do we have more talented riders now? I don't think so. I think our last batch of riders was pretty good. It started with Greg Lemond, of course. Lance Armstrong (assuming a somewhat level playing field even). Dave Z is about the only guy I can think of off the top of my head that has (had?) the potential to be a world beater. Nowadays there are no US riders that are so superior to others. Usually they're easy to spot - just watch for any Junior World Champion that won without using a sprint, then see if he burns out in the next year or three. If he doesn't he'll be unbeatable.
Are there more pros? For sure. I don't know the numbers but there are a lot of domestic pro teams. In 1983 I think there were 4 US pros, and if you raced as a pro you were banned from the USCF. I know Dale Stetina turned pro early, for Diacompe, instead of trying to get into the Olympics. Others turned pro right after. At that time, with talent naturally rising to the top, the US was rich with absolutely world class athletes, the Boonens and Cavendishes of the world. Thurlow Rogers basically single handedly placed third in the Peace Race, the amateur/pro Eastern Bloc Tour de France. Phinney, as an amateur, totally spanked the Euros in 50 mile crits, like the crit in Baltimore in 1982, and he was one of the top 100km TTT riders. Steve Hegg was shattering records in the pursuit, at the level of Viatcheslav Ekimov (who was the outright record holder).
We don't talk of US riders in that respect anymore, a high likelihood podium in any given classic or short stage race or grand tour. Lemond won the Dauphine by 10 minutes. He won the World road race by 1:10 or so. Lemond got third in his first Tour, working for his teammate, with bronchitis, and still crushed souls in the time trial and such.
I think the system is better for the US, with more pro races, more opportunities to surprise the cycling world. I also think that doping makes the talent levels hard to read. I'm sure there are some talented riders being left behind while others, taking short cuts, are reaping (minor) rewards. But generally speaking I don't see a super high talent US rider out there.
Are there better racers? I think that's pretty relative. I think before the early 90s it was easier to spot talent because any shortcuts didn't make up a huge difference. In other words you couldn't get a Cat 3, add a ton of EPO, and turn him into a Pro. Back then it was speed/amphetamines, coke, stuff like that. I had a Cat 4 (!!!!) teammate carted away in an ambulance when he had some problems with some speed he took before a 100 mile state road race (I dunno what he was thinking). I think he was having convulsions or something serious. Anyway, back then, a rider could only cheat a little, with nothing like EPO out there. There was no money, no nothing. $500 a month was great, about what Lemond got for his first contract. Even I, a pit slave in a bike shop, could make that money. A Junior World Champion with the most potential of any racer out there for the same amount? Crazy.
Talent comes from chance plus opportunity. Chance/genetics gives you the physiological body. Opportunity and luck put that person on a bike, not in a heroin addict's alley, in front of a dump truck that just lost its brakes, or driving down the interstate at 120 mph with a BAC of .21.
Do we have more talented riders now? I don't think so. I think our last batch of riders was pretty good. It started with Greg Lemond, of course. Lance Armstrong (assuming a somewhat level playing field even). Dave Z is about the only guy I can think of off the top of my head that has (had?) the potential to be a world beater. Nowadays there are no US riders that are so superior to others. Usually they're easy to spot - just watch for any Junior World Champion that won without using a sprint, then see if he burns out in the next year or three. If he doesn't he'll be unbeatable.
Are there more pros? For sure. I don't know the numbers but there are a lot of domestic pro teams. In 1983 I think there were 4 US pros, and if you raced as a pro you were banned from the USCF. I know Dale Stetina turned pro early, for Diacompe, instead of trying to get into the Olympics. Others turned pro right after. At that time, with talent naturally rising to the top, the US was rich with absolutely world class athletes, the Boonens and Cavendishes of the world. Thurlow Rogers basically single handedly placed third in the Peace Race, the amateur/pro Eastern Bloc Tour de France. Phinney, as an amateur, totally spanked the Euros in 50 mile crits, like the crit in Baltimore in 1982, and he was one of the top 100km TTT riders. Steve Hegg was shattering records in the pursuit, at the level of Viatcheslav Ekimov (who was the outright record holder).
We don't talk of US riders in that respect anymore, a high likelihood podium in any given classic or short stage race or grand tour. Lemond won the Dauphine by 10 minutes. He won the World road race by 1:10 or so. Lemond got third in his first Tour, working for his teammate, with bronchitis, and still crushed souls in the time trial and such.
I think the system is better for the US, with more pro races, more opportunities to surprise the cycling world. I also think that doping makes the talent levels hard to read. I'm sure there are some talented riders being left behind while others, taking short cuts, are reaping (minor) rewards. But generally speaking I don't see a super high talent US rider out there.
02-28-12, 08:56 PM
#29
out walking the earth
but there are more riders at a high level, and if you assume the world beater to be the outlier, they'll come and go. Taylor Phinney could be one. Remains to be seen. We're fielding 2 or 3 pro euro teams? That's certainly speaks to a higher volume of guys riding at a higher level.
of course I only care about masters racing so what do I really know.
of course I only care about masters racing so what do I really know.
02-28-12, 09:05 PM
#30
Senior Member
yep, outlier. I agree that there are more pros, more opportunities. But I think that we're lacking the top level rider that we had in a Lance or Greg.
I think that if Phinney was going to be a world beater, he'd already have done a bunch of stuff. I really, really hope his massive concussions don't affect him in the future, he's had a few really bad crashes. I wonder if his height will work against him. We need a short strong guy, 5'9" maybe 5'10", 140 lbs, and an FTP of 450 or 500. haha.
Of course Cunego got started hot and faded quickly, Saronni had about 1.5 good years and disappeared, but the really good riders, they are bang on and don't ease up.
I think that if Phinney was going to be a world beater, he'd already have done a bunch of stuff. I really, really hope his massive concussions don't affect him in the future, he's had a few really bad crashes. I wonder if his height will work against him. We need a short strong guy, 5'9" maybe 5'10", 140 lbs, and an FTP of 450 or 500. haha.
Of course Cunego got started hot and faded quickly, Saronni had about 1.5 good years and disappeared, but the really good riders, they are bang on and don't ease up.
02-28-12, 09:06 PM
#31
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02-28-12, 09:19 PM
#32
Senior Member
Hate to say it but no. Of course he'll win the Tour 5 times in a row soon and I'll have to eat my words but no. The really super duper talented guys could do it from the start. Boonen was a monster the year he was on Postal, and he started winning the next year. Knickman was slammin' from the gun. Lemond was second at worlds after two seasons. Bauer got second in his first classic, and second or third in the worlds following that. Even Cancellara, he started out by winning the prologue for Fasso Bortola, and he's been a TT type guy ever since.
To me the new great rider will be someone who surprises in one of the harder classics like a Liege or a Roubaix, then does astonishingly well in a short stage race while riding for his leader, then places top 5 (or top 3) in his first Tour, all before the age of 24. Then he continues such a career, riding extremely well in Classics while supporting teammates, doing well in GC races, and always a huge factor in the World Championships.
To me the new great rider will be someone who surprises in one of the harder classics like a Liege or a Roubaix, then does astonishingly well in a short stage race while riding for his leader, then places top 5 (or top 3) in his first Tour, all before the age of 24. Then he continues such a career, riding extremely well in Classics while supporting teammates, doing well in GC races, and always a huge factor in the World Championships.
02-29-12, 05:24 AM
#33
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Watching a couple of friends upgrade to Cat 1, USA cycling really takes a look at the points you submit. Both of them got their initial upgrade denied and were told to go get some more points. Still it seems easier now than in the 80's. There has to be 10 or 12 Cat 1's in the racing hotbed of Jacksonville now.
02-29-12, 08:22 AM
#34
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I forgot about some stuff, been distracted with police and other interesting stuff.
At some point there were a limited number of Cat 1s, as stated by rkwaki. Maybe it's an urban myth, but basically the purpose of Cat 1 was to have a ready pool of National Team riders. USCF would send a team to whatever race and piece together teams. It wasn't as organized. A friend of mine went and did various races as a Cat 1, PanAm, races in Europe, etc. They'd just call him up, he'd pack up and fly out, race under the national team colors, fly back.
If you didn't place you got downgraded. I think now you can request a downgrade if you don't place, but before it was a "use it or lose it" thing.
Upgrades were only for all-rounders. You had to get points in all types of races, crits and road races. You couldn't upgrade just on points. I got rejected based on types of races, where the rep said, "Okay, I'll upgrade you, but only after you place top 6 in two road races." I'd be like, "Yeah, right, a car would have to take out the field for me to place."
So I could place in virtually every crit I did, but because I got shelled in every road race, I couldn't get an upgrade from our rep. btw that rep is now part of the upper parts of USAC, I think collegiate rider development or something.
Basically this meant that to upgrade out of the 3s you had to be really, really, really good. You had to be a good sprinter and a good climber and probably a good time trialer.
To become a 1 was God like.
This created a huge bottle neck in the 3s. Once the license count went over about 15,000 racers, it got kind of busy. They needed to push riders up into 2 to make room for 3s and 4s.
In fact they even went the other direction - they created 5s. We used to joke about the non-existent "Cat 5s", like "Oh, he's a Cat 5". Now the equivalent would be "Must be a Cat 6."
Then they limited Cat 5 fields to 50 riders. There used to be 100-125 Cat 5s in some of the big races, and massive crashes. Even Bethel would get 75-80 rider Cat 5 fields. Crazy.
So now the 3s and 4s got a bit thinned out. They let specialists upgrade to Cat 2 (like crit monsters or road race mountain goats), and they added the Cat 5s to start people one step lower.
At some point there were a limited number of Cat 1s, as stated by rkwaki. Maybe it's an urban myth, but basically the purpose of Cat 1 was to have a ready pool of National Team riders. USCF would send a team to whatever race and piece together teams. It wasn't as organized. A friend of mine went and did various races as a Cat 1, PanAm, races in Europe, etc. They'd just call him up, he'd pack up and fly out, race under the national team colors, fly back.
If you didn't place you got downgraded. I think now you can request a downgrade if you don't place, but before it was a "use it or lose it" thing.
Upgrades were only for all-rounders. You had to get points in all types of races, crits and road races. You couldn't upgrade just on points. I got rejected based on types of races, where the rep said, "Okay, I'll upgrade you, but only after you place top 6 in two road races." I'd be like, "Yeah, right, a car would have to take out the field for me to place."
So I could place in virtually every crit I did, but because I got shelled in every road race, I couldn't get an upgrade from our rep. btw that rep is now part of the upper parts of USAC, I think collegiate rider development or something.
Basically this meant that to upgrade out of the 3s you had to be really, really, really good. You had to be a good sprinter and a good climber and probably a good time trialer.
To become a 1 was God like.
This created a huge bottle neck in the 3s. Once the license count went over about 15,000 racers, it got kind of busy. They needed to push riders up into 2 to make room for 3s and 4s.
In fact they even went the other direction - they created 5s. We used to joke about the non-existent "Cat 5s", like "Oh, he's a Cat 5". Now the equivalent would be "Must be a Cat 6."
Then they limited Cat 5 fields to 50 riders. There used to be 100-125 Cat 5s in some of the big races, and massive crashes. Even Bethel would get 75-80 rider Cat 5 fields. Crazy.
So now the 3s and 4s got a bit thinned out. They let specialists upgrade to Cat 2 (like crit monsters or road race mountain goats), and they added the Cat 5s to start people one step lower.
02-29-12, 08:32 AM
#35
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i have a buddy who upgraded to a three because of his crit abilities (mainly junior race wins), but once he moved up to p/1/2/3 races, he couldn't finish a single race.
02-29-12, 10:24 AM
#36
Senior Member
I don't bother entering road races because I get shelled so quickly on the hills. In fact, in 2010, I had a hard time in a few crits because of a hill. In my earlier life I got eliminated in every stage race I entered because I was so far off the back in the road race. I did get 6th place once in a road race (Jiminy Peak), but when the race finished I was already home. I don't know who didn't get their 6th place prize but he should have waited around for the results to go up.
02-29-12, 02:27 PM
#38
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02-29-12, 02:28 PM
#39
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yep, outlier. I agree that there are more pros, more opportunities. But I think that we're lacking the top level rider that we had in a Lance or Greg.
I think that if Phinney was going to be a world beater, he'd already have done a bunch of stuff. I really, really hope his massive concussions don't affect him in the future, he's had a few really bad crashes. I wonder if his height will work against him. We need a short strong guy, 5'9" maybe 5'10", 140 lbs, and an FTP of 450 or 500. haha.
Of course Cunego got started hot and faded quickly, Saronni had about 1.5 good years and disappeared, but the really good riders, they are bang on and don't ease up.
I think that if Phinney was going to be a world beater, he'd already have done a bunch of stuff. I really, really hope his massive concussions don't affect him in the future, he's had a few really bad crashes. I wonder if his height will work against him. We need a short strong guy, 5'9" maybe 5'10", 140 lbs, and an FTP of 450 or 500. haha.
Of course Cunego got started hot and faded quickly, Saronni had about 1.5 good years and disappeared, but the really good riders, they are bang on and don't ease up.
02-29-12, 02:33 PM
#40
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I do believe that in today's current roster that Cadel could fall into the same category as Contador should he stay upright.
02-29-12, 02:34 PM
#41
Senior Member
I was a Cat 2 in 2011 due to my finishes in crits.
I don't bother entering road races because I get shelled so quickly on the hills. In fact, in 2010, I had a hard time in a few crits because of a hill. In my earlier life I got eliminated in every stage race I entered because I was so far off the back in the road race. I did get 6th place once in a road race (Jiminy Peak), but when the race finished I was already home. I don't know who didn't get their 6th place prize but he should have waited around for the results to go up.
I don't bother entering road races because I get shelled so quickly on the hills. In fact, in 2010, I had a hard time in a few crits because of a hill. In my earlier life I got eliminated in every stage race I entered because I was so far off the back in the road race. I did get 6th place once in a road race (Jiminy Peak), but when the race finished I was already home. I don't know who didn't get their 6th place prize but he should have waited around for the results to go up.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-29-12, 02:40 PM
#42
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hey wait a minute, we're veering off topic ...
02-29-12, 02:46 PM
#43
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Yea... your experience plus the experience of some of guys local to me has convinced me to refrain from trying to upgrade until I can at least be competitive in road races at the Cat 3 level. Right now, if I catted up, I would be essentially giving up the first three months of the season (spring road races). It's a weight thing primarily. Didn't help I inflated this off-season by 10 lbs...
02-29-12, 02:51 PM
#44
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Yea... your experience plus the experience of some of guys local to me has convinced me to refrain from trying to upgrade until I can at least be competitive in road races at the Cat 3 level. Right now, if I catted up, I would be essentially giving up the first three months of the season (spring road races). It's a weight thing primarily. Didn't help I inflated this off-season by 10 lbs...
02-29-12, 03:31 PM
#45
Senior Member
5'11", lighter than clyde, but not by much. Match sprinter's legs.
Here's me, overweight in all my glory chasing TT specialists on a track bike in the rain.
Here's me, overweight in all my glory chasing TT specialists on a track bike in the rain.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 02-29-12 at 03:42 PM.
02-29-12, 03:55 PM
#46
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Cat 1 is easier to get these days and much less meaningful than 15-20 years ago. There are probably 20-30 1s on this forum vs 200 in the country.
02-29-12, 04:13 PM
#47
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02-29-12, 05:35 PM
#48
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1) What's up with your rear wheel? You have a deep-ish wheel on the front, but not the back. That seems backwards. Usually it is the other way. So no aero rear wheel available for the track bike set up?
2) Aero helmets don't cost that much and give good bang for the $. Why not have one? Or borrow one from a friend that you are pretty sure doesn't have head lice.
3) You look scrunched up. Could you set up your aerobars differently? Longer stem?
02-29-12, 05:41 PM
#49
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A couple of questions.
1) What's up with your rear wheel? You have a deep-ish wheel on the front, but not the back. That seems backwards. Usually it is the other way. So no aero rear wheel available for the track bike set up?
2) Aero helmets don't cost that much and give good bang for the $. Why not have one? Or borrow one from a friend that you are pretty sure doesn't have head lice.
3) You look scrunched up. Could you set up your aerobars differently? Longer stem?
1) What's up with your rear wheel? You have a deep-ish wheel on the front, but not the back. That seems backwards. Usually it is the other way. So no aero rear wheel available for the track bike set up?
2) Aero helmets don't cost that much and give good bang for the $. Why not have one? Or borrow one from a friend that you are pretty sure doesn't have head lice.
3) You look scrunched up. Could you set up your aerobars differently? Longer stem?
2) fugggggg tha police mofowwwwwwkaaaaa!
3) I think his position looks fairly good. Arms are slightly more than 90*, good knee extension. My only suggestion would be to drop the cockpit a bit more if his flexibility and headset allowed for it.
02-29-12, 05:50 PM
#50
Elite Fred
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But aero on the rear helps conpared to non-aeo. And it is not as dicey as aero on the front on crosswinds. Why not have that advantage?