AzTallRider

We have a similar situation coming up later this year. Doh!

Men Cat. 3 and Cat. 4 *..........7:04 AM
Masters 35+/45+ and
Masters 55+/65+ (Cat. 1-4)* ...7:08 AM

rkwaki

If I were racing I would be 40+ (turn 40 in August) and from what we saw last year I can as well. A buddy of mine (also a sprinter) was chasing me in a town sprint, we are about the same weight (I am a little heavier) and as he passed 1700 watts I was still pulling away If I actually put some miles on this year I should have an SRM on so I can vouch for my outlandish claims.

jabbahop

I was talking to a local Cat 3 @ the GMSR last year (he won it) about how our races were going. I (a new cat 4) was racing the M50+ and getting pummeled every race. When I told him I was racing masters he said "Ahhhh - where the pros and Olympians go to die". Sure enough when they announced the top 10 on the last day, one of them was a former Olympian and he wasn't even in the top 3. It sure was fun watching the tactics though.

MDcatV

this is generally true, although in some cases hanging around in the field of a masters race is actually easier because the race is much smoother.

kind of, but as someone who does both masters races (35+ or 40+ wherever the line is drawn) and P123, there is a vast difference between the 2.

I can win 35+ races, it would take an act of God for me to do so in the P123 unless all the Ps and 1s were out of town. At least in my district, I find the P123 races to be much more team oriented, more aggressive in that it takes more attacks for breaks to become established, there's less fitness disparity among the field and among the pack fodder, and the field gets decimated into smaller groups more often. In Masters races, the pecking order seems more established, once the break goes, the field is often happy to sit up with individuals trying to blast off the front more often than in the P123 where if the mix of the break isnt to the fields liking, teams go to the front and chase. Some of the top faces are the same, but the racing is pretty different.

shovelhd

I pretty much agree with everything you've said. I find the P/1/2/(3) races for the most part to be harder, because the pace is higher, the attacks are stronger and more frequent, and the races are longer. Still, at age 54 I'll keep doing them as long as I am not pack fodder. I can still make the break and do honest work, still do a kilo effort to bridge to a break, still lap up a prime or two, and still finish near the front. I get a kick out of beating people half my age. As soon as I am not able to do that, I'll do what so many of my peers have done and downgrade to Cat3, but not until. When it gets to the point where I can't be a factor in a Masters race, I'll hang it up and drift quietly into Fredland and just enjoy riding my bike.

plantrob

The last few posts have me leaning more towards racing the 40+. As it will be one of my first races as a non-cat5, I have no illusions of winning, or making the deciding break - regardless of whether it's the 3/4 or the 40+. If I can hang with a contingent of the participants and finish, I'll call it good. So I'm not so concerned about the 1600W sprinting abilities found among my co-racers, but I like the prospect that it's likely to be relatively smooth. I could still get shelled the first or second time up the wall - but since uphills tend to come easier to me, I'm willing to take that risk.

MDcatV

i should have put caveats in my post about smoothness. that is in the absence of race features that are make or break, like the gamber wall/section after it, and the 3 successive rollers that run into the finish at turkey hill.

this is going to sound rude, but it's intended to just be blunt, you're still a cat 5 experience wise. you have no business in any open masters race. none. if it were up to me, cat 4s wouldnt be permitted in masters races. ever. hell, if i were king for the day, i wouldnt let cat 3s in a masters race.

reading over your posts, you're analyzing this like a runner, which is flawed, and suggests to me that your experience level is very newb. you should race your experience level. look for events that have a masters category 4/5 field, that would be perfect for you, but until you get 50 races or so under your belt, your decision should be should i do the cat 4 race, the 4/5, or if not available, the 3/4.

merlinextraligh

That seems a bit over the top. To be a Cat 3, either you've raced a fair amount (lifetime achievment upgrade) or you've shown some ability (points upgrade). As a 52 year old Cat 3, I'm not going to win Masters races, but I can be a factor, and have a few finishes in the money.

rkwaki

You rude fugger
Bwahahahaha - and 100% correct (well except for not allowing 3s in the Masters field)

carpediemracing 

FWIW if you upgraded all the Masters based on their finishes in Masters races, all those Cat 3s would be 2s. You have to admit that someone with a gazillion national titles to their name (okay, I won't exaggerate, just 29 national titles - and how many do YOU have?) to be a Cat 3... that's just not right. Or Cat 3s that can regularly lead themselves out for 2 minutes and win a field sprint? They shouldn't be a Cat 3.

I think there are some Cat 3s that can and should race Masters. I also think there are Cat 3s that don't have a clue - see below.


I think 50 races is a good experience number though, at least if it's in a year or two. If that number was spread out over 10 years, not so good.

Here's an M35+ race, kind of easy course (power hill, 53x14-17 or so), with a standard tight field sprint. Unusually for me (but normal for NYC I think) I got leaned on really hard twice in the last minute or two, each time for probably 5-10 seconds. If these clips seem normal to you, if you think this is fun and interesting but not scary and intimidating, you're in Cat 3 territory.

gsteinb

I think I recognize that butt on the right.

rkwaki

I believe that the rules should be like the old days. Once you are a Pro or a 1 you should never be able to downgrade past a 2. When I stopped racing the first time around this was something that prevented me from racing again, knowing that I would have to race the P1/2 field to start after having not raced for years.

rkwaki

Nice butt...

gsteinb

Back in 2009 I was the number 1 ranked cat 3 racer in the country. The top five-10 were all masters. Kind of ridiculous.

rkwaki

Now that you are a 2 quickly on your way to a 1 it would be ridiculous for you to go backwards to a 3. Agreed?

gsteinb

I'm totally against downgrading, though that's how I ended up as a three again in the first place.

carpediemracing 

I'm all for downgrading

shovelhd

I'm OK with downgrading, it's the lack of enforcement of mandatory upgrades that is the real issue IMHO. It would be pretty easy to fix with a simple rule change and calculation in the USAC system. Let's say you were a Cat2. It takes 25 points to upgrade from 3->2. My proposal is, if you downgrade, you keep half of your points, rounded up, and you cannot request another downgrade within x years, say two or three. So you can have your domination period in the 3's, but it will be short lived.

rkwaki

That's fair BUT if you were ever Pro Cat 1 or 2 should be your only possible downgrade.

gsteinb

We're racing against at guy at bethel who was a 1 at some point and is now a 4.

shovelhd

That may not be his fault. USAC lost so many records from the USCF days that they might not know he was a Cat1. That's why I have a six digit number when I should have a five.

carpediemracing 

I like that. Should be a rule proposal this October.

There's an ex-pro friend I saw for the first time in a year. He's got to be 250 lbs. It would be punishment to keep him even as a 2.

But I see your point.

Homebrew01

I also had to start back as a 4. However, after many years off, if I had to start back as a 2, I would have been spit out the back big time and maybe not bother trying to race again.
Downgrading has it's place. We are not all like Shovelhd, Gary etc...
It's the lack of enforcing upgrades that is more of a problem I think. How can Curley keep a straight face when he sees a '3' on his license ?

gsteinb

That isn't the case with the guy I'm talking about.

rkwaki

I'd love to tell my story but I got a stern lecture from a USAC official one day for "playing with the field"