Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Southwest TN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Tarmac S-Works
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Got dropped again at a steep hill. Any advice?

    I followed one of the plans at Training Peaks, for hilly races and I did notice a great improvement in climbing.

    But crap! it wasn't enough. Raced this Saturday on a fairly hill course that went around 9 laps for a total of 47 miles. I lasted until the 6th lap, which was a victory in itself, but same damn result.

    Came twice within 10-20 feet of bridging, but in the end I cooked up my legs and ended 39th out of 46. Funny thing, the closest I came to bridging was at the same *&%&* hill!

    Any advice? I was happy with my progress and thought for sure I'd do better. As is, last year's was a better race since I finished 27th. I weigh almost 8 lbs lighter than last year

    Don't want to remain just a crit guy, since as I get older that's also getting tough to chew.

  2. #2
    Fly on the wall
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    My Bikes
    a few
    Posts
    980
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pecos View Post
    I followed one of the plans at Training Peaks, for hilly races and I did notice a great improvement in climbing.

    But crap! it wasn't enough. Raced this Saturday on a fairly hill course that went around 9 laps for a total of 47 miles. I lasted until the 6th lap, which was a victory in itself, but same damn result.

    Came twice within 10-20 feet of bridging, but in the end I cooked up my legs and ended 39th out of 46. Funny thing, the closest I came to bridging was at the same *&%&* hill!

    Any advice? I was happy with my progress and thought for sure I'd do better. As is, last year's was a better race since I finished 27th. I weigh almost 8 lbs lighter than last year

    Don't want to remain just a crit guy, since as I get older that's also getting tough to chew.
    Define hilly.

    I ask not to be an ass, there are just different ways to play it out depending on the type of hills.

    There is Road Race Hilly
    e.g. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/180336222

    Changing grade hilly
    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/186399016

    Hill Climb madness
    http://www.bicyclerace.com/docs/2012/BCMHC.pdf

    And some others...

    Some examples and advice

    If your course profile looked something like my first example, you have a few aces up your sleeve. The most popular is to start each climb towards the front. Time it right, and drift back slowly so you are close to the back by the time you hit the top. That way you'll have to do less (maybe 5%) than the others to keep up with the pack. This is pretty dangerous if the group might split, however it does help save legs. As you might be able to see, the climbs are relatively steady on that course, Meaning the grade always goes up until the apex of the hill.

    Second example has 2 hills. One which is relatively steady, and actually shallow enough that drafting does matter. The other has pitches up to 18%, and the grade waxes and wanes throughout the climb. This one kicks my ass, to the point of non races routinely beat me up it. After the first mile drafting doesn't really matter. The kicker is to go from neuromuscular on a steep pitch, to spinning FTP on a shallow pitch to keep the pace up. Strategy is to always draft on the first hill, and there is no strategy aside from pacing on the second.

    If it looks like the Mt. Evans profile, you are f'd. Just do lots of FTP and long SST.

    Of course VO2 max on hills for training doesn't hurt, well doesn't hurt your race performance

    Disclaimer, I'm not a climber. I just live around climbers, so I'm forced to climb.
    Last edited by kindablue; 06-11-12 at 05:43 PM.
    Nothing should come between you and your chamois -- lawkd

  3. #3
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,954
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    keep training.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  4. #4
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,166
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    keep training.
    and lose more weight.

    also, consider doing specific intervals that are the same length (time) as it takes to get up the toughest hill you're likely to race.
    "have fun and be kind"
    - an internet post

  5. #5
    Fly on the wall
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    My Bikes
    a few
    Posts
    980
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Oh and dear Floridians, see my first post. Your state is not hilly.

    just sayin
    Nothing should come between you and your chamois -- lawkd

  6. #6
    Village Idiot
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bahstaaaaan
    Posts
    20,118
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Climb faster.
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
    -Albert Camus

    Hammer Nutrition 15% discount!!!

  7. #7
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    13,596
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Choose different parents. If you can't climb and you have some reasonable training then ultimately you can't climb.

    A friend of mine (that climbs well) asked me why I didn't train more for climbing, why I don't just bump my FTP by 100-150 watts (which is about 50-60%). I pointed out that I did, when I was under 112 lbs, and I still got shelled on the hills first. At the same time, at about that weight, I could hit 40+ mph on a flat road in a sprint. I asked him why doesn't he just bump his sprint power up by 500-800 watts (which is about the same 50-60% increase over his current max)?

    If one could choose to become a better climber, how come a Cavendish or Farrar doesn't train to climb better? How come Cancellara doesn't stay at the front in the mountains? Wouldn't he make wads of money if he won a bunch of Tours? Certainly. Whatever it is that makes a good w/kg power/weight ratio is determined by your parents, by your genetics. Training maximizes your potential, but the potential is basically set.

    For you a similar question might be "Why don't you just train your sprint until you're untouchable?" or "Why don't you work on your time trialing until you can ride everyone off your wheel?" You would if you could, right? It just doesn't work out like that.

    What's interesting about climbing and time trialing is that they both require solo skills that don't necessarily apply to mass start races. If you're not keen on crits then you're probably not super comfortable in a field, and that's a problem that you can improve (vs your climbing potential which you can't work on).

    Whenever I see a rider that's strong but has totally neglected working on pack skills I see a road racer that hates crits. Typically these racers are extremely strong and not very savvy.

    A good road racer can like crits - they make things very, very hard on the sprinters because they are both strong and savvy.

    I wish I could ride more strongly but I can't. Therefore I make do with what I have.

    The super strong riders end up Cat 1s or pros and they still have the same problem - "I can't stay with them on the climbs" "I can't time trial with them" "I can't sprint with them". It's just at a different level of riding.

  8. #8
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Nayr497's BFF
    Posts
    8,529
    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    To the op - in answering your question, train with me . That was not a hilly race, the guy who won is a good friend (we have actually written his nutritional plan and have coached him) the other guy who won the other primes is one of my training partners. They have both become better climbers because they are training smarter, dieting to become faster and training with people who 'hurt' them.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  9. #9
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    13,660
    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do more VO2Max work.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,954
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Choose different parents. If you can't climb and you have some reasonable training then ultimately you can't climb.
    ...
    1+

    That said, training can go a long way. Cavendish and Farrar don't train their climbing because their abilities in this area are sufficient and they make a lot of hay with their sprint. Time taken to train FTP is time not spent working on their sprint. Cancellara, on the other hand, doesn't train his sprint because he makes hay on a TT bike and off the front, and time working on his sprint is time not spent polishing his FTP. But these guys are pros and they make money doing what they do. Amateurs have the luxury of picking our own races and racing and training the way we want.

    But... climbing is also different than sprinting or time trialing simply because it is so tied to body weight, which is more or less genetic. You need some serious threshold power to climb with the climbers if you weigh over 175lbs. I'm 5'11" with big legs and a big frame; the next time I see 150lbs is after I'm done and buried and I've had time to dry out a bit. Lance Armstrong and Jan Ullrich were pretty much the last of the "big guys" to win in the Tour by crushing both the climbs and the TTs, and, well, they were genetic freaks (and maybe with well stocked medicine cabinets). And even then, they were not all that big at 160-170lbs.

    Most people eventually come around to training and racing to their strengths rather than their weaknesses. You train your weaknesses up to the point where they stop becoming a liability, and then you focus on your strengths. Then you choose races and/or race strategies which mitigate you weaknesses and maximize your strengths.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  11. #11
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Nayr497's BFF
    Posts
    8,529
    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When I was getting ready for the 'big show' I weighed 156 and could climb like the wind (I am 5'11") now at 195ish I can still climb well and hang with most I just can't attack. That being said for me to ever dream of road racing again I would have to drop another 20 pounds which just isn't going to happen therefore I am a crit tt guy. Figure out what your strengths are and play with those.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Southwest TN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Tarmac S-Works
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    kindablue,

    You are making me look like a puss. My race was flat compared to any of the examples you posted. The steepest it got was 8% and only for a few yards. I'd say in general, that it was kinda like the first example, but not nearly as much elevation. The road was narrow and the peloton did go quite fast for the first 3-4 laps. I knew to get up front but the initial pace was ridiculous. I probably wasted the fitness gains by trying to keep up initially. There was one team with very good riders that kept the pressure on throughout and better yet, they worked together, burning some of them just to split the race apart. Which is bike racing, absolutely.

    Yes, force / climbing is my biggest limiter.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Southwest TN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Tarmac S-Works
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    and lose more weight.

    also, consider doing specific intervals that are the same length (time) as it takes to get up the toughest hill you're likely to race.
    That's what I thought I was doing. At the end of my build period, the work intervals for my anaerobic force workouts were at least twice as long. But looks like I didn't get the intensity right, or the level of competition was much higher than before. Probably both.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Southwest TN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Tarmac S-Works
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    To the op - in answering your question, train with me . That was not a hilly race, the guy who won is a good friend (we have actually written his nutritional plan and have coached him) the other guy who won the other primes is one of my training partners. They have both become better climbers because they are training smarter, dieting to become faster and training with people who 'hurt' them.
    PM me with details, I am currently looking at coaching alternatives, pretty much all too expensive for me to do on a long term basis, looking for either a local source or someone that can take a team's roster. Although the latter is the prerogative of my team leader. Do have a limited no. of hours to train due to IT job.

  15. #15
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    3,419
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Without knowing your exact training plan, the course route, and your power figures, it's tough to say.

    I'm 5'11" 138lbs and I'll get dropped on steep hills because I can't do repeated 30sec efforts like big guys can. On the other hand, I'll drop almost anyone on a climb longer than 3 miles.

    Do you at least have a gps file for us to look at?
    Category 2 | | Velogames BikeForums Leagues: 1st - 2012 Veulta, 1st - 2011 Vuelta, 2nd - 2013 Vuelta, 3rd - 2012 Giro, 4th - 2012 TdF

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    7,818
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably you need to eat better. Probably you need to train better. Probably you are a smasher that can't climb. Probably too old and with no talent. Probably the bike is bad climbing (bike at some level helps a lot) Who knows man... w/o a bunch of details is hard to even try to guess what can be wrong.

  17. #17
    . botto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    40,339
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    and lose more weight.

    also, consider doing specific intervals that are the same length (time) as it takes to get up the toughest hill you're likely to race.
    this.

  18. #18
    Village Idiot
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bahstaaaaan
    Posts
    20,118
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pecos View Post
    kindablue,

    You are making me look like a puss. My race was flat compared to any of the examples you posted. The steepest it got was 8% and only for a few yards. I'd say in general, that it was kinda like the first example, but not nearly as much elevation. The road was narrow and the peloton did go quite fast for the first 3-4 laps. I knew to get up front but the initial pace was ridiculous. I probably wasted the fitness gains by trying to keep up initially. There was one team with very good riders that kept the pressure on throughout and better yet, they worked together, burning some of them just to split the race apart. Which is bike racing, absolutely.

    Yes, force / climbing is my biggest limiter.
    There's something to be said for staying at the pointy end up to a climb and then fading a bit so you don't lose contact as you crest whatever.
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
    -Albert Camus

    Hammer Nutrition 15% discount!!!

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    878
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm going with the obvious issue here, some people just can't climb. It really is that simple.

    Assuming you are at peak fitness, otherwise, you still have some work to do, and maybe you will be able to hang.

    Otherwise, expect more of the same.
    HTFU

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Southwest TN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Tarmac S-Works
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
    Without knowing your exact training plan, the course route, and your power figures, it's tough to say.

    I'm 5'11" 138lbs and I'll get dropped on steep hills because I can't do repeated 30sec efforts like big guys can. On the other hand, I'll drop almost anyone on a climb longer than 3 miles.

    Do you at least have a gps file for us to look at?
    http://www.cirquevelosmemphis.com/im...0Criterium.pdf

    I got almost 40 lbs on you, same height, my FTP power is about 240-250, which is low, but my CP20s is high for my category so I do better in crits. I'd just like not to suck at hills so much.

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Southwest TN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Tarmac S-Works
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
    It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably too old and with no talent.
    These 2 things you say, are, unfortunately, quite true.

  22. #22
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Nayr497's BFF
    Posts
    8,529
    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
    It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably you need to eat better. Probably you need to train better. Probably you are a smasher that can't climb. Probably too old and with no talent. Probably the bike is bad climbing (bike at some level helps a lot) Who knows man... w/o a bunch of details is hard to even try to guess what can be wrong.
    Kind of a doooooshy response, non?
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  23. #23
    stole your bike roadiejorge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    North Bergen, NJ
    My Bikes
    Orbea Orca, Ridley Compact
    Posts
    6,718
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
    It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably you need to eat better. Probably you need to train better. Probably you are a smasher that can't climb. Probably too old and with no talent. Probably the bike is bad climbing (bike at some level helps a lot) Who knows man... w/o a bunch of details is hard to even try to guess what can be wrong.
    I don't have to guess at what's wrong with this response. yeesh.
    I like pie

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Southwest TN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Tarmac S-Works
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Do more VO2Max work.
    I've been going over and over my training plan, my power files, etc and other than losing more weight, this is what I'm gathering I could have done more of. It seems I concentrated on raising my climbing threshold using a 'push' approach. What I mean is longer intervals at near threshold. I was training for a race with longer climbs with steady rise, not the ups and downs of last Saturday. I probably should have analyzed the race profile in more detail and come up with workouts to better mimic the course. In short, higher intensity and shorter durations, probably at 105-120% of FTP.

    Thanks to all who replied. Even to the 'frenchman' who suggested I'm a no-good, old-fart with no hope.

  25. #25
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    BOSTON BABY
    Posts
    7,723
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pecos View Post
    http://www.cirquevelosmemphis.com/im...0Criterium.pdf

    I got almost 40 lbs on you, same height, my FTP power is about 240-250, which is low, but my CP20s is high for my category so I do better in crits. I'd just like not to suck at hills so much.
    There you go - your FTP isn't much above 3:1. That's not going to cut it when the going gets steep. You might not being doing climbs that are long enough to be climbed at FTP, but it does point to relatively low power to weight probably at all intervals. It sounds mostly like you need to develop a better power to weight ratio. And there are only two ways to do that: get stronger, or get smaller. Or both.
    The Workingman's Honest Bicycle Program - Heady talk about bikes, bike racing, bike racers and bike riding. standarddouble.com/whbp

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •