Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-11-12, 04:40 PM   #1
pecos
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Got dropped again at a steep hill. Any advice?

I followed one of the plans at Training Peaks, for hilly races and I did notice a great improvement in climbing.

But crap! it wasn't enough. Raced this Saturday on a fairly hill course that went around 9 laps for a total of 47 miles. I lasted until the 6th lap, which was a victory in itself, but same damn result.

Came twice within 10-20 feet of bridging, but in the end I cooked up my legs and ended 39th out of 46. Funny thing, the closest I came to bridging was at the same *&%&* hill!

Any advice? I was happy with my progress and thought for sure I'd do better. As is, last year's was a better race since I finished 27th. I weigh almost 8 lbs lighter than last year

Don't want to remain just a crit guy, since as I get older that's also getting tough to chew.
pecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 05:05 PM   #2
kindablue
Fly on the wall
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Colorado Springs
Bikes: a few
Posts: 981
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pecos View Post
I followed one of the plans at Training Peaks, for hilly races and I did notice a great improvement in climbing.

But crap! it wasn't enough. Raced this Saturday on a fairly hill course that went around 9 laps for a total of 47 miles. I lasted until the 6th lap, which was a victory in itself, but same damn result.

Came twice within 10-20 feet of bridging, but in the end I cooked up my legs and ended 39th out of 46. Funny thing, the closest I came to bridging was at the same *&%&* hill!

Any advice? I was happy with my progress and thought for sure I'd do better. As is, last year's was a better race since I finished 27th. I weigh almost 8 lbs lighter than last year

Don't want to remain just a crit guy, since as I get older that's also getting tough to chew.
Define hilly.

I ask not to be an ass, there are just different ways to play it out depending on the type of hills.

There is Road Race Hilly
e.g. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/180336222

Changing grade hilly
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/186399016

Hill Climb madness
http://www.bicyclerace.com/docs/2012/BCMHC.pdf

And some others...

Some examples and advice

If your course profile looked something like my first example, you have a few aces up your sleeve. The most popular is to start each climb towards the front. Time it right, and drift back slowly so you are close to the back by the time you hit the top. That way you'll have to do less (maybe 5%) than the others to keep up with the pack. This is pretty dangerous if the group might split, however it does help save legs. As you might be able to see, the climbs are relatively steady on that course, Meaning the grade always goes up until the apex of the hill.

Second example has 2 hills. One which is relatively steady, and actually shallow enough that drafting does matter. The other has pitches up to 18%, and the grade waxes and wanes throughout the climb. This one kicks my ass, to the point of non races routinely beat me up it. After the first mile drafting doesn't really matter. The kicker is to go from neuromuscular on a steep pitch, to spinning FTP on a shallow pitch to keep the pace up. Strategy is to always draft on the first hill, and there is no strategy aside from pacing on the second.

If it looks like the Mt. Evans profile, you are f'd. Just do lots of FTP and long SST.

Of course VO2 max on hills for training doesn't hurt, well doesn't hurt your race performance

Disclaimer, I'm not a climber. I just live around climbers, so I'm forced to climb.

Last edited by kindablue; 06-11-12 at 05:43 PM.
kindablue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 05:27 PM   #3
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
keep training.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 05:37 PM   #4
Creakyknees
ride lots be safe
 
Creakyknees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Bikes:
Posts: 5,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
keep training.
and lose more weight.

also, consider doing specific intervals that are the same length (time) as it takes to get up the toughest hill you're likely to race.
Creakyknees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 05:44 PM   #5
kindablue
Fly on the wall
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Colorado Springs
Bikes: a few
Posts: 981
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh and dear Floridians, see my first post. Your state is not hilly.

just sayin
kindablue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 07:11 PM   #6
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Climb faster.
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 07:29 PM   #7
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,628
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Choose different parents. If you can't climb and you have some reasonable training then ultimately you can't climb.

A friend of mine (that climbs well) asked me why I didn't train more for climbing, why I don't just bump my FTP by 100-150 watts (which is about 50-60%). I pointed out that I did, when I was under 112 lbs, and I still got shelled on the hills first. At the same time, at about that weight, I could hit 40+ mph on a flat road in a sprint. I asked him why doesn't he just bump his sprint power up by 500-800 watts (which is about the same 50-60% increase over his current max)?

If one could choose to become a better climber, how come a Cavendish or Farrar doesn't train to climb better? How come Cancellara doesn't stay at the front in the mountains? Wouldn't he make wads of money if he won a bunch of Tours? Certainly. Whatever it is that makes a good w/kg power/weight ratio is determined by your parents, by your genetics. Training maximizes your potential, but the potential is basically set.

For you a similar question might be "Why don't you just train your sprint until you're untouchable?" or "Why don't you work on your time trialing until you can ride everyone off your wheel?" You would if you could, right? It just doesn't work out like that.

What's interesting about climbing and time trialing is that they both require solo skills that don't necessarily apply to mass start races. If you're not keen on crits then you're probably not super comfortable in a field, and that's a problem that you can improve (vs your climbing potential which you can't work on).

Whenever I see a rider that's strong but has totally neglected working on pack skills I see a road racer that hates crits. Typically these racers are extremely strong and not very savvy.

A good road racer can like crits - they make things very, very hard on the sprinters because they are both strong and savvy.

I wish I could ride more strongly but I can't. Therefore I make do with what I have.

The super strong riders end up Cat 1s or pros and they still have the same problem - "I can't stay with them on the climbs" "I can't time trial with them" "I can't sprint with them". It's just at a different level of riding.
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 07:55 PM   #8
rkwaki
soon to be gsteinc...
 
rkwaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nayr497's BFF
Bikes:
Posts: 8,559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To the op - in answering your question, train with me . That was not a hilly race, the guy who won is a good friend (we have actually written his nutritional plan and have coached him) the other guy who won the other primes is one of my training partners. They have both become better climbers because they are training smarter, dieting to become faster and training with people who 'hurt' them.
rkwaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 08:01 PM   #9
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 15,529
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Do more VO2Max work.
shovelhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 08:03 PM   #10
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Choose different parents. If you can't climb and you have some reasonable training then ultimately you can't climb.
...
1+

That said, training can go a long way. Cavendish and Farrar don't train their climbing because their abilities in this area are sufficient and they make a lot of hay with their sprint. Time taken to train FTP is time not spent working on their sprint. Cancellara, on the other hand, doesn't train his sprint because he makes hay on a TT bike and off the front, and time working on his sprint is time not spent polishing his FTP. But these guys are pros and they make money doing what they do. Amateurs have the luxury of picking our own races and racing and training the way we want.

But... climbing is also different than sprinting or time trialing simply because it is so tied to body weight, which is more or less genetic. You need some serious threshold power to climb with the climbers if you weigh over 175lbs. I'm 5'11" with big legs and a big frame; the next time I see 150lbs is after I'm done and buried and I've had time to dry out a bit. Lance Armstrong and Jan Ullrich were pretty much the last of the "big guys" to win in the Tour by crushing both the climbs and the TTs, and, well, they were genetic freaks (and maybe with well stocked medicine cabinets). And even then, they were not all that big at 160-170lbs.

Most people eventually come around to training and racing to their strengths rather than their weaknesses. You train your weaknesses up to the point where they stop becoming a liability, and then you focus on your strengths. Then you choose races and/or race strategies which mitigate you weaknesses and maximize your strengths.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-12, 08:08 PM   #11
rkwaki
soon to be gsteinc...
 
rkwaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nayr497's BFF
Bikes:
Posts: 8,559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
When I was getting ready for the 'big show' I weighed 156 and could climb like the wind (I am 5'11") now at 195ish I can still climb well and hang with most I just can't attack. That being said for me to ever dream of road racing again I would have to drop another 20 pounds which just isn't going to happen therefore I am a crit tt guy. Figure out what your strengths are and play with those.
rkwaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 10:01 AM   #12
pecos
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
kindablue,

You are making me look like a puss. My race was flat compared to any of the examples you posted. The steepest it got was 8% and only for a few yards. I'd say in general, that it was kinda like the first example, but not nearly as much elevation. The road was narrow and the peloton did go quite fast for the first 3-4 laps. I knew to get up front but the initial pace was ridiculous. I probably wasted the fitness gains by trying to keep up initially. There was one team with very good riders that kept the pressure on throughout and better yet, they worked together, burning some of them just to split the race apart. Which is bike racing, absolutely.

Yes, force / climbing is my biggest limiter.
pecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 10:06 AM   #13
pecos
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
and lose more weight.

also, consider doing specific intervals that are the same length (time) as it takes to get up the toughest hill you're likely to race.
That's what I thought I was doing. At the end of my build period, the work intervals for my anaerobic force workouts were at least twice as long. But looks like I didn't get the intensity right, or the level of competition was much higher than before. Probably both.
pecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 10:48 AM   #14
pecos
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
To the op - in answering your question, train with me . That was not a hilly race, the guy who won is a good friend (we have actually written his nutritional plan and have coached him) the other guy who won the other primes is one of my training partners. They have both become better climbers because they are training smarter, dieting to become faster and training with people who 'hurt' them.
PM me with details, I am currently looking at coaching alternatives, pretty much all too expensive for me to do on a long term basis, looking for either a local source or someone that can take a team's roster. Although the latter is the prerogative of my team leader. Do have a limited no. of hours to train due to IT job.
pecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 11:00 AM   #15
Creatre
These Guys Eat Oreos
 
Creatre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 3,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Without knowing your exact training plan, the course route, and your power figures, it's tough to say.

I'm 5'11" 138lbs and I'll get dropped on steep hills because I can't do repeated 30sec efforts like big guys can. On the other hand, I'll drop almost anyone on a climb longer than 3 miles.

Do you at least have a gps file for us to look at?
Creatre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 11:10 AM   #16
ultraman6970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 7,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably you need to eat better. Probably you need to train better. Probably you are a smasher that can't climb. Probably too old and with no talent. Probably the bike is bad climbing (bike at some level helps a lot) Who knows man... w/o a bunch of details is hard to even try to guess what can be wrong.
ultraman6970 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 12:51 PM   #17
botto 
.
 
botto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 40,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
and lose more weight.

also, consider doing specific intervals that are the same length (time) as it takes to get up the toughest hill you're likely to race.
this.
botto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 01:24 PM   #18
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pecos View Post
kindablue,

You are making me look like a puss. My race was flat compared to any of the examples you posted. The steepest it got was 8% and only for a few yards. I'd say in general, that it was kinda like the first example, but not nearly as much elevation. The road was narrow and the peloton did go quite fast for the first 3-4 laps. I knew to get up front but the initial pace was ridiculous. I probably wasted the fitness gains by trying to keep up initially. There was one team with very good riders that kept the pressure on throughout and better yet, they worked together, burning some of them just to split the race apart. Which is bike racing, absolutely.

Yes, force / climbing is my biggest limiter.
There's something to be said for staying at the pointy end up to a climb and then fading a bit so you don't lose contact as you crest whatever.
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-12, 01:35 PM   #19
zigmeister
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm going with the obvious issue here, some people just can't climb. It really is that simple.

Assuming you are at peak fitness, otherwise, you still have some work to do, and maybe you will be able to hang.

Otherwise, expect more of the same.
zigmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-12, 05:34 PM   #20
pecos
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
Without knowing your exact training plan, the course route, and your power figures, it's tough to say.

I'm 5'11" 138lbs and I'll get dropped on steep hills because I can't do repeated 30sec efforts like big guys can. On the other hand, I'll drop almost anyone on a climb longer than 3 miles.

Do you at least have a gps file for us to look at?
http://www.cirquevelosmemphis.com/im...0Criterium.pdf

I got almost 40 lbs on you, same height, my FTP power is about 240-250, which is low, but my CP20s is high for my category so I do better in crits. I'd just like not to suck at hills so much.
pecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-12, 05:36 PM   #21
pecos
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably too old and with no talent.
These 2 things you say, are, unfortunately, quite true.
pecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-12, 05:58 PM   #22
rkwaki
soon to be gsteinc...
 
rkwaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nayr497's BFF
Bikes:
Posts: 8,559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably you need to eat better. Probably you need to train better. Probably you are a smasher that can't climb. Probably too old and with no talent. Probably the bike is bad climbing (bike at some level helps a lot) Who knows man... w/o a bunch of details is hard to even try to guess what can be wrong.
Kind of a doooooshy response, non?
rkwaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-12, 06:17 PM   #23
roadiejorge 
stole your bike
 
roadiejorge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Bergen, NJ
Bikes: Orbea Orca, Ridley Compact
Posts: 6,891
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 353 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
It depends of many things, probably naturally you suck climbing. Probably you need to eat better. Probably you need to train better. Probably you are a smasher that can't climb. Probably too old and with no talent. Probably the bike is bad climbing (bike at some level helps a lot) Who knows man... w/o a bunch of details is hard to even try to guess what can be wrong.
I don't have to guess at what's wrong with this response. yeesh.
__________________
I like pie
roadiejorge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-12, 07:29 PM   #24
pecos
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
Posts: 188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
Do more VO2Max work.
I've been going over and over my training plan, my power files, etc and other than losing more weight, this is what I'm gathering I could have done more of. It seems I concentrated on raising my climbing threshold using a 'push' approach. What I mean is longer intervals at near threshold. I was training for a race with longer climbs with steady rise, not the ups and downs of last Saturday. I probably should have analyzed the race profile in more detail and come up with workouts to better mimic the course. In short, higher intensity and shorter durations, probably at 105-120% of FTP.

Thanks to all who replied. Even to the 'frenchman' who suggested I'm a no-good, old-fart with no hope.
pecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-12, 06:04 PM   #25
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,326
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pecos View Post
http://www.cirquevelosmemphis.com/im...0Criterium.pdf

I got almost 40 lbs on you, same height, my FTP power is about 240-250, which is low, but my CP20s is high for my category so I do better in crits. I'd just like not to suck at hills so much.
There you go - your FTP isn't much above 3:1. That's not going to cut it when the going gets steep. You might not being doing climbs that are long enough to be climbed at FTP, but it does point to relatively low power to weight probably at all intervals. It sounds mostly like you need to develop a better power to weight ratio. And there are only two ways to do that: get stronger, or get smaller. Or both.
grolby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:05 PM.