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  1. #1
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    Specialized Shiv - Any problem with local USA cycling events that include TT?

    I pulled the trigger on a Cervelo P2 today and was looking at a Shiv also (not the TT version). They guy in the store said there may be issues with racing them in non-tri events. I knew they were not UCI legal, but my assumption was that it didn't matter at a USA cycling event (at least not the levels I'm performing at). I did a quick google search and didn't find anything definative except a USA cycling statement from 2010 saying they were OK for masters, but not for any other Cat. IN the end, I went with the P2 because it seemed like a lot of bang for the buck, but would like to know the deal on the Shiv. I've got a teammate that just bought a Shiv today assuming he'd be able to use it in USA cycling TT events/stage races.

    On a related note, do you think it's reasonable for a TT beginner to get proficient enough on a TT bike in 1 week to make it worth using at an event? We've got the State TT coming next weekend and some teammates have convinced me to attend, but I'm undecided if I want to try on the new bike or just ride my road bike in the EM category. The position feels really funny to me (during my 15 minute test ride) and I seriously question my abilty to make good power for an hour straight. I'm going to spend some time on it the next coulple days and see if I can get comfortable.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Nate552's Avatar
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    In the lower Cats, typically, as long as it's not a National Champ event, the race officials don't care what you ride. Last year at the State TT I saw a guy racing a Trimble frame. I've also seen Softrides, old Zipp frames, etc. What Cat are you entering? As for getting comfy in a week....it depends. Depends on your fit, frame size choice, back, hamstrings, bar height, seat choice, etc. etc etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate552 View Post
    In the lower Cats, typically, as long as it's not a National Champ event, the race officials don't care what you ride. Last year at the State TT I saw a guy racing a Trimble frame. I've also seen Softrides, old Zipp frames, etc. What Cat are you entering? As for getting comfy in a week....it depends. Depends on your fit, frame size choice, back, hamstrings, bar height, seat choice, etc. etc etc.
    My friend/teammate who bought the shiv is a Cat 5, but only because he doesn't race much. He's got a monster FTP for a Cat 5 and has a good aero position on a road bike. I'll be curious how he does with a TT bike once he has some experience on one. He's in the same boat as me, no experience with TT bikes. I don't know that either of us will be on the new TT rigs next weekend, but we'll be out there.

    I told the guy at the shop I couldn't imagine someone having an issue with UCI bike regulatioins in Cat 3/4/5 races, but he said the lower CATS sometimes have the biggest complainers and could possibly raise an issue if someone is posting good results on an "illegal" bike.

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    I've heard the same thing from bike shop guys. I'm a 45 + 4 racer. I can't imagine anyone nailing me for non-UCI rules, but . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by grwoolf View Post
    My friend/teammate who bought the shiv is a Cat 5, but only because he doesn't race much. He's got a monster FTP for a Cat 5 and has a good aero position on a road bike. I'll be curious how he does with a TT bike once he has some experience on one. He's in the same boat as me, no experience with TT bikes. I don't know that either of us will be on the new TT rigs next weekend, but we'll be out there.

    I told the guy at the shop I couldn't imagine someone having an issue with UCI bike regulatioins in Cat 3/4/5 races, but he said the lower CATS sometimes have the biggest complainers and could possibly raise an issue if someone is posting good results on an "illegal" bike.

  5. #5
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grwoolf View Post
    On a related note, do you think it's reasonable for a TT beginner to get proficient enough on a TT bike in 1 week to make it worth using at an event?
    Absolutely. You might not be really comfortable yet, and you certainly will not have developed the power you ultimately will have in the TT position, but you will likely be much faster despite that. I too recently pulled the trigger on a P2 (5-6 weeks ago?) and by my second ride, I was looking at the computer and thinking "Holy cow, am I really going that fast?" The speed feels effortless. Just cranking at a decent wattage, I became KOM on a hill I often use to practice leadout sprints (segment includes the downhill and the flat afterwards). I can crank as hard as I want on the road bike and not match what I do on the TT bike. As comparison, my CP5 (and likely my FTP) on the TT bike is maybe 30-40w less than on the road bike, but there is just no comparison in what I can do speed wise. TT bikes are insanely fast, due mostly of course to how aero YOU are.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #6
    Senior Member Nate552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    As comparison, my CP5 (and likely my FTP) on the TT bike is maybe 30-40w less than on the road bike
    Wait...what? Question, have ever been fit on your TT bike?

  7. #7
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate552 View Post
    Wait...what? Question, have ever been fit on your TT bike?
    Just the initial quick 'purchase fit' so far. But I've taken video, and Ex is helping me refine my position. Given my LBS has a wind-tunnel (see sig link), and I'm on the team, I'll likely eventually be tweaking it in the tunnel. It's always a balance between maximum power and minimum drag.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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    There are a very limited number of USA Cycling events where you would have an issue. These handful of events use UCI bike regulations and include:

    - Most national championships
    - Selections for world/olympic/national team events
    - NRC events

    An example is the Nationals being help in Augusta, GA this week. To see what the rules are scroll to page 2 of this doc:

    https://www.usacycling.org/forms/nat...quirements.pdf

    The idea is that events that qualify you to compete at UCI or international events or are top tier domestic events will use UCI rules. Otherwise the bike is fine and would be legal at the local TT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech Director View Post
    There are a very limited number of USA Cycling events where you would have an issue. These handful of events use UCI bike regulations and include:

    - Most national championships
    - Selections for world/olympic/national team events
    - NRC events

    An example is the Nationals being help in Augusta, GA this week. To see what the rules are scroll to page 2 of this doc:

    https://www.usacycling.org/forms/nat...quirements.pdf

    The idea is that events that qualify you to compete at UCI or international events or are top tier domestic events will use UCI rules. Otherwise the bike is fine and would be legal at the local TT.
    Thanks, good to see the official stance there. I'm going to send this to my LBS guys so they are a little more educated on the rules.

    I took the new bike out this morning and I don't think I'll be riding it next weekend in the state TT. The TT is 40k and I don't think I can dial in and adapt to a good position where I'd be comfortable for 1+ hour. I did ~20 miles with a fast 15 mile out and back in the middle and I was struggling in the aerobars and not putting out good power. The speed difference was impressive though. It's the fastest I've ever ridden that stretch despite wattage numbers at least 40 watts off what I can do on my road bike. My quads were not happy, it felt like they were doing too much work compared to glutes/hamstrings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate552 View Post
    Wait...what? Question, have ever been fit on your TT bike?
    You can be fit to instantly give you the same power as your road bike.

    Or you can be fit to give you the fastest speed, at a lower power which you can then generally rapidly adapt into with a lot of "free" power just from adapting to the position. And once you've done that of course you can reset back to finding the fastest new position.

    Optimising for watts at the start seems pretty silly if it costs you time.

  11. #11
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JibberJim View Post
    Or you can be fit to give you the fastest speed, at a lower power which you can then generally rapidly adapt into with a lot of "free" power just from adapting to the position. And once you've done that of course you can reset back to finding the fastest new position.
    Exactly the approach I'm taking. But after having the video assessed, I can likely get some power back, and also improve slipperiness by moving the seat forward some more. Currently at the UCI limit, but hey, even if I were doing Masters nationals, they've said they aren't enforcing that rule.

    This has turned into a hijack - sorry.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  12. #12
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    I'd wait to hear what nate has to say before speaking for him.

    He and ex have quite a bit of knowledge to drop regarding this stuff
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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    personally, I consider it cheating if anyone races on a non-UCI compliant bike.

  14. #14
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    The only problem I see in using a Shiv is not having the legs/lungs to push such a beautiful bike and looking like a parking lot poseur.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    I think the Shiv with the fairing is ugly anyways. I would much rather have the UCI legal version just because of looks. Not to mention, then I won't get flogged by all my friends saying I only won because I had a huge arse fairing.
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    TT bikes are for dorks.

    I need to get one though..
    pro-meter: lol

    blog

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    TT bikes are for dorks.
    "It takes concentration, it takes patience, it takes confidence; if you're lacking in any of those three areas, you're going to have problems" Bobby Julich


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    Update - I've got a shiv coming in Friday. After my (very uncomfortable) ride on Sunday, I went by the shop to look at my fit and ended up deciding the swap the p2 for a shiv comp. They were pretty close in price and this shiv was a much better fit. The p2 (in size 56) was really long for me and a 54 was too low. I ended up with a Shiv in a medium (54). I'm about 6'1" and I can't believe a 54cm frame is right, but the guy fitting me is well respected and the shiv felt much better than the p2. It's a very tall bike compared to the p2, so no issues on drop. Unfortunately, the bike I was fitted on was already sold, so we had to order one.

    I won't feel any guilt about a non-uci bike if it's blessed by USA cycling. I've got a long way to go before the aero-factor of the bike frame is a consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grwoolf View Post
    ...
    I took the new bike out this morning and I don't think I'll be riding it next weekend in the state TT. The TT is 40k and I don't think I can dial in and adapt to a good position where I'd be comfortable for 1+ hour. I did ~20 miles with a fast 15 mile out and back in the middle and I was struggling in the aerobars and not putting out good power. The speed difference was impressive though. It's the fastest I've ever ridden that stretch despite wattage numbers at least 40 watts off what I can do on my road bike. ....
    I don't understand why you are drawing the conclusion from this that you should NOT use the TT bike! It sounds to me like you SHOULD! It's not a wattage-measuring-contest, it's a SPEED measuring contest!!!

    edit to add: who cares if you're comfortable, you only have to do it for an hour.
    ...

  20. #20
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valygrl View Post
    I don't understand why you are drawing the conclusion from this that you should NOT use the TT bike! It sounds to me like you SHOULD! It's not a wattage-measuring-contest, it's a SPEED measuring contest!!!

    edit to add: who cares if you're comfortable, you only have to do it for an hour.
    I love you.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by valygrl View Post
    I don't understand why you are drawing the conclusion from this that you should NOT use the TT bike! It sounds to me like you SHOULD! It's not a wattage-measuring-contest, it's a SPEED measuring contest!!!

    edit to add: who cares if you're comfortable, you only have to do it for an hour.
    I hear ya, but the speed was nothing to write home about. It's faster than I've done that stretch on a road bike, but I'd be sitting in the cellar at that pace against strong guys who know what they are doing on TT bikes. If there wasn't an EM category, I'd give the TT bike a go. I may not even have a TT bike for the weekend if it doesn't show up on Friday (and I have to register by noon tomorrow).

  22. #22
    Senior Member Nate552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grwoolf View Post
    I hear ya, but the speed was nothing to write home about. It's faster than I've done that stretch on a road bike, but I'd be sitting in the cellar at that pace against strong guys who know what they are doing on TT bikes. If there wasn't an EM category, I'd give the TT bike a go. I may not even have a TT bike for the weekend if it doesn't show up on Friday (and I have to register by noon tomorrow).
    Got a tracking number on that bike? No way do I do a TT and leave the TT bike at home.

  23. #23
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    TT bikes are for dorks.

    I need to get one though..
    still got one on my wall...
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  24. #24
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    How the heck is the P2 and Shiv the same price range? (Sorry I'm a bit uninformed on TT bikes). You can find a brand new P2 somewhere online for like $1500-$1800 because people bought two during that deal last summer. I would much rather be uncomfortable on a Cervelo and be fast, than be on a Shiv that looks dumb and isn't even UCI legal.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
    How the heck is the P2 and Shiv the same price range? (Sorry I'm a bit uninformed on TT bikes). You can find a brand new P2 somewhere online for like $1500-$1800 because people bought two during that deal last summer. I would much rather be uncomfortable on a Cervelo and be fast, than be on a Shiv that looks dumb and isn't even UCI legal.
    I don't know why the price is similar, they just are (ask cervelo and specialized?). It's a Shiv Comp, which is the bottom end of the shiv line, but it has the same frame as everything but the S-works. The looks of the Shiv are individual taste, but I can't imagine why anyone would buy a bike they are not comfortable on.

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