YMCA

I know a young guy recently who got cat1 on a load of local training crits and a single 3rd place at a P12.

When did masters start counting towards upgrades anyway???

My last upgrade was 1997 to cat1, and no way could I count training crits, or masters stuff.

gsteinb

I know when I went from 3 to 2 the rep said masters stuff didn't count. Not sure why it mattered I had twice the necessary points (read: sandbagger).

shovelhd

Lots of stuff has changed since 1997.

jsutkeepspining

hairstyles, music, the economy, food, and just about everything besides death and taxes

jk taxes have changed!

shovelhd

Training races without an official scoring should not count. I don't get, though, why Masters races should not count 100% from Cat2->1. If Cat2 Masters are commonly allowed to downgrade to Cat3 to stomp the Cat3 fields, why shouldn't Cat2 Masters with enough points, but all Masters points, be allowed to upgrade to Cat1?

mattm

I always thought it's because Cat1 is supposed to be 'pure'.

YMCA

Because the masters field's are filled out with 3's and 4's.
Whereas a P12 field is just that.

But I can see your argument shovelhd. I suppose I can agree that there should be some consideration for masters results. Maybe 50% of one's points at most.
Not sure what the exact rules are these days, but I'd guess there is some leeway involved.

shovelhd

Right, but around here most of the P/1/2 races are P/1/2/3. I'd have no problem with raising the bar.

Racer Ex 

In 1997 Masters smoked cigarettes during the races.

Like everything else USAC, it's fuzzy, mostly it depends on who the upgrade person is. But the days of Cat 1 meaning you made the national team is long gone; you can make a pretty good case that what's a 2 now was a 3 then, and so on. And in 1997 the masters (veterens?) fields weren't stacked like they are these days in some locals.

I was/am also fine with a 50% rule.

carpediemracing 

Not to be a hard ass, I respect you. I definitely agree that a Masters race is easier than a P12 race because, as you point out, a P12 race is all P12s.

One of the things is that in the area we have a lot of Cat 3 Masters who are national champions, both current and former. Some are 5 or 10 time champs, some probably more, one is approaching 30 national titles. They really shouldn't be 3s but they remain 3s. If the Masters that should be 2s were actually 2s you'd find a lot of the 3s transformed into 2s.

Yes, there are normal 3s and 4s in Masters races. You can tell the 4s because they tend to be less fluent in the field. This is not a dig at any 4, it's just that the rest of the field are either long time 3s or legit 2s and 1s. Almost all Cat 4 Masters are legit Cat 4s (there was one exception that comes to mind but he upgraded to 2 I think, which is what he ought to be) so they tend to be less experienced and therefore less comfortable with, say, going through a corner with a friendly elbow resting in the area between your tricep and your chest (but not actually touching you).

The "real" 3s are the pack fodder, like me.

If certain riders take the top 3 or 4 spots in a Masters race (I saw it happen this summer) it's possible that between them they have held maybe 50 or 60 national titles. That's a lot more titles than a legitimate Cat 3 should hold.

RacerJRP

I think its BS that you can upgrade from 4 to 3 on pack finishes. You should have to show some racing prowess (tactical/ fitness/ whatever) to upgrade. Simply paying your entry fee and finishing a race(s) 30 times or whatever it is as pack fodder is pretty lame.

Also, as stated, Cat3 Masters racers that are winning races against solid 1's and 2's should not happen. Forced Upgrades.

jsutkeepspining

facepalm! its cat three, not turning pro. theres very little difference to be honest between the two.

carpediemracing 

I see your point but how about a scenario like this: a well organized team with both Cat 3s and 4s decides to work together as a team. Each rider's strengths and weaknesses are brutally analyzed, no punches pulled. The racers are split into sprinters and leadout/"domestique" categories. Part of the brutal honesty was the team had maybe one guy that had a chance of finishing in the front group of a given road race, so we sent domestiques and him to road races, or just him himself. I mean the team sent domestiques... you get the idea.

One guy is a good domestique. He's an excellent leadout, knows how to get to the front, knows how to drill it for the sprinter, and leads out different sprinters to wide margin wins. The problem is that this leadout guy isn't placing. In fact he finishes one race 2:30 down on the winner, the guy he led out. Story here.

Tom easily earns his upgrade. Doc has no points, but he's the guy that's been doing a huge amount of set up work for Tom. Should he be denied an upgrade at the end of the year? Ultimately he got the upgrade but before the next season started he moved out to nowhereland, bought a huge ranch place, and became a cowboy in his free time. Unclear how his season would have been as a 3 but I have a feeling he'd have been a good rider to have on the team.

mattm

+1, that's why you need points, and only points, to get to the 1/2's.

saratoga

Why is it BS?

I upgraded via top 10s and (a lot of) finishes in the field. That was through helping a teammate finish 3rd in the cat 4 points series for the season. We did the same thing in the 3s a year later... only he's a 2 now and I'm still a 3 for other reasons. I'm not the strongest rider, but not the dumbest either. Knowing how to keep the avg power down and handle riding in traffic goes further than strength sometimes.

A lot of it is left up to the regional upgrade coordinator, but IMO if you're placing in masters races you deserve to use the points to cat up if that's an option.

topflightpro

I"m also going to have to disagree.

It's one thing to cat up on field finishes if you are basically just surviving races and finishing in the field, but it's completely different if you are spending an entire 3/4 race working for your team and finishing in the field. I can't count how many times I was on the front reeling in a break or chasing down guys to benefit my teammates.

RacerJRP

By "Pack finishes" I meant consistently finishing back outside the top half of a given field. I Agree that being able to upgrade on top 10's as well as points, from 4 to 3 is a great rule. Thats the way I think it should be completely though. Even though it's only Cat3. Use points or top 10's. period.

shovelhd

No love for us older guys?

saratoga

Better?

save10

"real" cat 3 here. sigh.

goose70

In the races I've done and the ones I've watched, I've noticed a significant difference in skill between 3s and 4s, more than between 5's and 4s or 3s and 2s. From what I can tell, the big leaps are 4-3 and 2-1. Cat 4 seems to be the great plateau for most racers -- it's a big bottlenck in my area.

Regarding masters races counting, I agree with the sentiment about limiting the number of points that count, but only after upgrading to Cat 3. At the 4 level, everyone in a masters race is at your cat or higher anyway, and if anything, the masters races I've watched seem to be at a higher level than the open 4 races, so counting those points does not strike me as providing master racers with any advantage.

caloso

Hence my member status:

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uncreative

is it uncommon to have categories within the master's field? around here, its masters 1/2/3, masters 4, and masters 5. they are usually further split up by 35+ and 45+. there is a lot of crossover between the P123 and the Masters 123 with guys racing, and placing, in both. this seems to create a bottleneck in our masters 4 cats, since guys will avoid upgrading so they don't have to race the master 1/2/3s.

at any rate, i don't see anything mentioned in the rule book about age category racing not counting for upgrades,with the exception of a cap on points earned for 2->1.

saratoga

That's being put up for discussion in FL for next season. Now, it's 30+ 40+ 50+ etc not separated by category. One of the options is to go to 35-49 123 and 35-49 4/5.

I can see why they want to do it, but can also see where it could create some sandbagging masters racers like you mentioned.

jsutkeepspining

i would say the real jump is 3->2. You can be a fast 3, upgrade, then just be a regular two. The speed in the 4's and 3's are very similar, as are the technique, but once you jump in with the big boys you either need to step up or downgrade.