rankin116

Nah, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I was commenting more on my feeling that there are sooo many variables at play on the road that I find it hard to buy into 'this frame is faster no matter what' thing. As a scientist I question any sort of blanket statements like that, but I fully admit that I have not sought out the data. I think what gets to me the most is that almost all of the data comes from people selling something. I know there really isn't a way around that either, not like the government is going to start funding bicycle aerodynamics research so we can have peer-reviewed publications.

Brian Ratliff

And in 90 seconds, you've just eliminated field sprints and pack riding as we know it. Anyone for bumping shoulders with the dude in the Obree position (either one)? In his original position, he couldn't even stay on the track by himself without putting his chest on his bars. Roadies like to complain about triathletes riding in unstable postures...

So, how do you fix this? You either be content with wild evolutions of racing style as it follows technology trends or you make another rule.

The above process is exactly what the UCI did, and those 90 seconds of rulemaking just described the, say, 1930's rulebook. You are defining a bicycle based on what you don't want it to look like (not a recumbent, HPV, or "lay down" bike). Then the guy comes along with the sketchy frame that is drilled full of holes and you create a rule for that. Then the guy who rests his chest on his bars comes along and you design a rule for that. Etc. And then you get a huge picture made of negative space defining what a bike is not. And what inevitably drives it? It's not about how the bikes look, it's about how the game is played. NASCAR and Formula racing styles are totally different not because the drivers prefer different styles of racing but because the technology makes the race play out differently. You plop a couple Formula cars in a NASCAR race and it instantly becomes a Formula race with a bunch of yahoos in NASCAR cars bringing up the rear. If you want to preserve the NASCAR style, you start defining what a NASCAR car is and we are right back where we are with the UCI.

It's no secret that there are wildly faster bikes than roadbikes out there. I just looked back at an old local TT result: there was a recumbent category - the top recumbent beat DrWJODonnell (of the "Before you start another TT thread" fame) by over two minutes on a 14 mile course.

grolby

Regarding tech, I think I'm mostly with RX: imagine if we had thrown the doors open to innovation in the 90's instead of the UCI stifling it. What would we be racing on now?

The problem goes beyond merely limiting what's available for racing (I know RX pointed this out already, but stay with me). Because of the marketing effect of racing success and trickle down of technology, what's available to recreational riders is limited, yes, but so is even our imagination of what and how good a bicycle can be! Just look at the ridiculous Internet debates over putting hydraulic disc brakes on road racing bikes, a pretty low bar for innovation - but it's too easy to convince oneself that the bikes we have are "good enough." Imagine someone arguing that about cars! I know, people do, stick-in-the-mudism can never be done away with, but even in relatively mainstream circles, the idea that modern cars are "good enough," that they aren't ripe for improvement, is preposterous.

Professional racing could certainly improve the breed, but with the UCI rules as they stand, we're improving it in very limited and arbitrary ways. And it's only going to get worse, word on the street is that the UCI is planning to ban wheels deeper than 60mm or so in mass-start races. Why? Where does it stop?

It makes me wonder about chilling effects, too. As technology has advanced, the trade-offs in weight or aerodynamics or power loss become more favorable to bicycle improvements that weren't practical before. I'd love to see a return to efforts to build suspended race bikes - I'm sure that there's some speed to be found there, especially in cyclocross. But do you put millions of dollars into developing something radically new when the UCI might up and ban it on a whim? I'd be pretty nervous about giving the OK on a project like that if I ran a big bike company. A world where disc brakes are considered a scary, radical change is pretty sad, if you ask me, but that's the world we're in - one where only a relatively small improvement like that is considered safe to really make a push for in the industry.

grolby

I think your example is punching holes in your own declaration. Eliminates field sprints and pack riding? Really? Drafting in close quarters is still going to be critical in a mass-start bicycle race; successful designs are going to have to take that into account. I do agree with what you're saying about not wanting it to be the Wild West as far as safety is concerned, but otherwise you're making some awfully strong assumptions about effects on racing that I don't really think are warranted. Just look at your auto-racing examples: F1 and NASCAR racers aren't in the same environment. You don't see so much drafting in F1, as I understand it, because it interferes with the aerodynamics of the following vehicle and eliminates a lot of the downforce; but then, drafting is probably less of an issue to begin with when you have smaller grids and different kinds of courses. Obviously the rules have a huge role in dictating the kinds of vehicles that are raced in both sports, but the environmental differences would dictate different cars even if the equipment rules were the same.

shovelhd

Riding it is one thing. Racing it is another. If you haven't raced it, you don't understand the advantages.

gnome

waterrockets 

Pretty much similar equipment on my part, but I'm not waiting for the engine to improve before buying the gear... I'm just not buying the gear. Results in this sport haven't been important enough for me to continue adding budget line items for the benefits. I am a believer in the technological innovations and their effects on performance, I'm just not interested in participating at that level.

Lame, I guess. At any rate, I'm at the point of diminishing returns on enjoyment of bike races. It would take a lot more time and money to get significantly more enjoyment out of it, and I have RC gliders to build, boy scout camps to go to, little athletes to coach, and a marriage to enjoy.

echappist

not lame, just un-a-Merikun

Racer Ex 

Yeah, no one ever crashes in our current position bumping another rider.

You must have been reading the UCI's version of the Obree position. Quick Q n A...how many times did Obree crash?

You ever ride a team pursuit or team time trial? Nah. To dangerous. Much safer sprinting.

Jesus H. are you serious? I go downhill at 55-60 MPH with my chest on the bars. I've banged elbows dozens of time in the aerobars.

tetonrider

+1!

+3 for every bike i have with di2. it's incredible.

Jandro 

I don't doubt it. I'll check it out when I start losing races because of equipment and not because I'm slow So far, only the latter is the case.

Racer Ex 

Well, the data I base my comments on isn't manufacturer generated, and I throw a lot of questions at neutral data as well. FWIW the more I do the more I know and the less I can predict, if that makes any sense.

Some stuff is a slam dunk. Other stuff leaves you trying to wrap your head around why.

Racer Ex 

You'll never make it to Europe with those messed up priorities.

Homebrew01

Same here.
It's pretty obvious that equipent matters .... but it's the cost benefit analysis that is up for discussion many times. Big teams and affluent amateurs can buy the best for every advantage, but others have to pick and choose. So, yes, $1500 wheels will make a difference, but is that the best use of $1500 ? Depends.

mike868y

i'm kind of the same way. i've got one road bike (and a fixed gear but that's just a grocery getting, bar bike, etc.). it's a tarmac expert so a pretty nice frame but nothing special. my wheel set (my only wheel set) is a hodgepodge mavic ksyrium elite/fulcrum setup that is basically all I have left on functioning wheels. it has an ultegra group and stock seatpost/handlebars. i changed the stem because the stock one broke. i would love some carbon wheels for racing, but I have a hard time convincing myself it's "worth it."

cutting beer out of my diet would probably do far more for my performance.

shovelhd

You get a pass because you're a starving college student.

I could not afford $2500 for a new Dura-Ace Di2 group. I bought the gearset used. A friend gave me the sprint shifters. The climbing and TT buttons were $7.99/set on closeout at Performance. The seatpost battery cost $15, and another $10 for connectors.

Same deal for my wheels. $500 for the used set of 404's, and about the same for the used set of psimet clinchers.

waterrockets 

Not elbows but it is a TTT...

shovelhd

The guy on the front looks familiar. I think he's the jerk that took my Strava KOM away.

gsteinb

looks like he went bowling

echappist

doesn't he, now?

i hear he disrespects the race officials and sprints when he's at the registration table

kensuf

We're doing 20 years this August.

waterrockets 

Note that the guy hitting the deck does not have aero bars

johnybutts

So what exactly happened?

waterrockets 

Crashy's team was in front, about to get passed by RX's team as they approached a right-hand corner. He missed the corner while RX's team was passing on the left. When they missed the corner, RX's team maintained their line going straight, planning a turnaround to get back on course. When Crashy realized he missed the turn and had caused another team to go straight, he inexplicably freaked out and swerved left, sweeping his own front on RX's wheel.

island rider

Don't do this to me.... I have HED set #1 in my possession, #2 is coming today, and #3 on Friday. I took the 7 and 9 out of the box. Strangely, they didn't seem any different than any other wheel (except tubular, wider and deeper than I currently have). I thought they would be dripping fast and try to roll away out of the box.