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Old 06-25-13, 09:56 PM   #3701
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Cavendish intervals. Top end speed is improving a bit, but what's really improving is 95% speed, or rather my comfort there. And of course comfort is the wrong word, I guess it's just familiarity in that zone.
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Old 06-26-13, 12:14 AM   #3702
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SJBC Twilight training "race". The national TT champ guy who only pushes 53x11 rode away from our break, never to be seen again.. shoulda grabbed that wheel!

Good workout though, 1.5 hours at .95 IF.
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Old 06-26-13, 10:58 AM   #3703
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First time riding with a HR monitor. 9x 3'30" (2 laps on the polo track) intervals at 85-90% maxHR. 2 laps on, 1 lap off. Last lap was an 'all out' effort.

Legs are feeling good.
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Old 06-26-13, 11:23 AM   #3704
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First time riding with a HR monitor. 9x 3'30" (2 laps on the polo track) intervals at 85-90% maxHR. 2 laps on, 1 lap off. Last lap was an 'all out' effort.

Legs are feeling good.
How do you know what your maxHR is if it was your first ride with a HR monitor?
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Old 06-26-13, 12:00 PM   #3705
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maxHR is stupid.

go do a 30' test and use ur LTHR

oh and i did 3 hrs this morning b4 work just motorin' around. starting to get fatigued and I have 10hrs left b4 I finish off the week (resting next week). itll b tough.
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Old 06-26-13, 12:06 PM   #3706
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Question - on a day (like today) when fatigue is high and HR isn't reacting, what's best to do? I set out to do some 12' hill climbs at threshold but it was immediately clear my HR wasn't going anywhere. I changed the plan and instead did the intervals at about 90% and rebranded the workout as SST.

Is it better to gut it out and go hard anyway, or do what I did and go at a level consistent with the sluggish HR, or give up and call it a rest day?
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Old 06-26-13, 12:08 PM   #3707
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2hrs of endurance...

This is turning into a mid-season training camp for me. So far have 15.5hrs on the bike since last Friday. Hope for another 3hrs tomorrow, after the wife's TT, then it'll be home for the weekend. Friday she's doing the RR and I'll be handling the feed and drive home afterwards.

Been a good stay in Lac Megantic!
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Old 06-26-13, 12:10 PM   #3708
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Question - on a day (like today) when fatigue is high and HR isn't reacting, what's best to do? I set out to do some 12' hill climbs at threshold but it was immediately clear my HR wasn't going anywhere. I changed the plan and instead did the intervals at about 90% and rebranded the workout as SST.

Is it better to gut it out and go hard anyway, or do what I did and go at a level consistent with the sluggish HR, or give up and call it a rest day?
Why does HR matter? What do you mean by fatigue high? Power is what's important. 1 week into a block my HR is trash. I still do the other 2-3 weeks before rest. I don't let my low HR get in my way.
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Old 06-26-13, 12:12 PM   #3709
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Question - on a day (like today) when fatigue is high and HR isn't reacting, what's best to do? I set out to do some 12' hill climbs at threshold but it was immediately clear my HR wasn't going anywhere. I changed the plan and instead did the intervals at about 90% and rebranded the workout as SST.

Is it better to gut it out and go hard anyway, or do what I did and go at a level consistent with the sluggish HR, or give up and call it a rest day?

depends on where you are in your training cycle, what you have on schedule for tomorrow, and when you your next race is scheduled.
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Old 06-26-13, 12:12 PM   #3710
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Why does HR matter? What do you mean by fatigue high? Power is what's important. 1 week into a block my HR is trash. I still do the other 2-3 weeks before rest. I don't let my low HR get in my way.
I figured HR matters because if you're not getting the HR up, you're not working the physiological systems that the workout is intended to work. Guess I'm thinking about this wrong?

(I'm on the last 2 days of a 3-week block, TSB is -19)

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Old 06-26-13, 12:12 PM   #3711
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Question - on a day (like today) when fatigue is high and HR isn't reacting, what's best to do? I set out to do some 12' hill climbs at threshold but it was immediately clear my HR wasn't going anywhere. I changed the plan and instead did the intervals at about 90% and rebranded the workout as SST.

Is it better to gut it out and go hard anyway, or do what I did and go at a level consistent with the sluggish HR, or give up and call it a rest day?
I think it depends on your training load that led up to today. Have you been doing a bunch of training this week and last?

If so, rest. If not, go hard.
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Old 06-26-13, 12:15 PM   #3712
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I notice when my HR is non responsive/low that my workouts are 100% easier (I guess because HR is lower?) and I feel significantly stronger on the bike. That's why I don't let it worry me. Maybe this is just me?

Seriously though after my first VO2 workout in a training block my HR at efforts crashes and doesn't come back up until a rest week.
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Old 06-26-13, 12:21 PM   #3713
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I notice when my HR is non responsive/low that my workouts are 100% easier (I guess because HR is lower?) and I feel significantly stronger on the bike. That's why I don't let it worry me. Maybe this is just me?
Hmmm. For me, there is a sort of barrier at a specific HR where work starts to really hurt. (Not chest pain, I mean like overall cardio suffering.) That barrier HR is about 15 bpm below max HR. If I can get through that barrier, I get into a different sort of zone where it's not as painful. On days when I feel sort of blocked, I can't bust through that barrier and going harder just increases the hurt.
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Old 06-26-13, 12:48 PM   #3714
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So, ah, what's everyone's average heart rate?
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Old 06-26-13, 02:12 PM   #3715
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So, ah, what's everyone's average heart rate?
Mines about ​41
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Old 06-26-13, 02:13 PM   #3716
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How do you know what your maxHR is if it was your first ride with a HR monitor?
Just using the default for my age/weight until I can go do a real test. Mostly I used it as a vague indication of what zone I was in, rather than an exact measure. Seems to have worked in conjunction with staying with my other training partners and being aware of how my legs felt.

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maxHR is stupid.

go do a 30' test and use ur LTHR
Cool, will do.

edit: after reading this, I'd do a 30' lactate threshold (HR) test by going out and riding about as hard as I can sustain for that time period, right? Pretend it's a 30' TT where it should be difficult to limp home afterwards. Then, take my average HR for that duration and that becomes my target HR, which I can use that same chart's multipliers to get my targets for shorter interval work.
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Old 06-26-13, 02:26 PM   #3717
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Friel is a good source for LTHR based training zones, there are other good sources. To elaborate on TMonk just a little bit, max HR is a poor basis for zones because the relationship between it and LTHR is highly variable in the population, the relationship between LTHR and training zones is much more reliable.
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Old 06-26-13, 02:35 PM   #3718
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jandro, honestly, living and working where you do? Live a little
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Old 06-26-13, 02:51 PM   #3719
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Hmmm. For me, there is a sort of barrier at a specific HR where work starts to really hurt. (Not chest pain, I mean like overall cardio suffering.) That barrier HR is about 15 bpm below max HR. If I can get through that barrier, I get into a different sort of zone where it's not as painful. On days when I feel sort of blocked, I can't bust through that barrier and going harder just increases the hurt.

if you're at the end of a 3 week training block, you're probably carrying some fatigue which in most people (and by most i mean me) results in your HR being less responsive to your efforts and not climbing as high as when you're fresh. so, your HR will rise slower or lag behind more when you do the interval, and might not hit the HR zone you're targetting at all. also, it might stay elevated longer. this would be typical as after 3 weeks you're probably physically ready for a some more recovery time.

in your circumstance, I would have tried to hit the wattage targets for your efforts and if unsuccessful not worried about it.
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Old 06-26-13, 02:52 PM   #3720
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Friel is a good source for LTHR based training zones, there are other good sources. To elaborate on TMonk just a little bit, max HR is a poor basis for zones because the relationship between it and LTHR is highly variable in the population, the relationship between LTHR and training zones is much more reliable.
And even with LTHR I find that it is constantly changing over the course of several months.I have to keep an eye on it and adjust zones frequently. HR fluctuation, oh the woes of no power.
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Old 06-26-13, 02:54 PM   #3721
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jandro, honestly, living and working where you do? Live a little
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Old 06-26-13, 02:56 PM   #3722
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Just using the default for my age/weight until I can go do a real test. Mostly I used it as a vague indication of what zone I was in, rather than an exact measure. Seems to have worked in conjunction with staying with my other training partners and being aware of how my legs felt.



Cool, will do.

edit: after reading this, I'd do a 30' lactate threshold (HR) test by going out and riding about as hard as I can sustain for that time period, right? Pretend it's a 30' TT where it should be difficult to limp home afterwards. Then, take my average HR for that duration and that becomes my target HR, which I can use that same chart's multipliers to get my targets for shorter interval work.
ya exactly. IIRC, the Friel method sez to use the last 20' of the 30' interval as your LTHR. My HR zones have been based around the number I achieved in this test (187bpm) for nearly 5 years now.

and grolby put it succinctly when he mentioned the downfalls of using max HR as any sort of meaningful metric. It's way more variable then LTHR (relative to power) on a day to day basis.
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Old 06-26-13, 02:57 PM   #3723
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Why does HR matter? What do you mean by fatigue high? Power is what's important. 1 week into a block my HR is trash. I still do the other 2-3 weeks before rest. I don't let my low HR get in my way.
Take this FWIW. HR matters.

I train and race using three parameters: Power, HR, and RPE. All three are valuable. Each one tells a piece of the story. The story can be told without all of them but it will not be complete. I have four data screens on my Garmin 800: Racing, Indoor Training, Recovery, and JRA. 3s average power and HR are on every one of them, for good reason.

I'll give you an example. I am returning to racing from major injury and a crappy start to the healthy part of my season. My RPE is off due to weeks off from racing. Power varies with training load and rest, but my max HR is my max HR. At the end of last night's race, I drilled it for half a lap to lead out the field. My RPE said I was going as fast as I could. Power was very good but it's a variable metric as it is affected by so many external conditions. 30 seconds after that effort my HR was within 3 points of my max HR (193bpm). That tells me I could not have gone much harder or longer.

HR is also a telltale indicator that I need rest. If I start a VO2Max interval series and my HR is pegged in the threshold range, then my body is telling me something. HR is supposed to be elastic. If the rubber band won't stretch, then you need rest.

Train however you choose. Use HR or don't use HR. I find it to be as valuable as RPE and power.
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Old 06-26-13, 03:13 PM   #3724
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Did 6x20s Sprints for the line on Tuesday. First average was 801, rest were between 720-750. Haven't had time to clean up the data, so actual should be a tad higher. I think this is the best 20s power I have seen ever!
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Old 06-26-13, 03:18 PM   #3725
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Another piece of the HR story: coach told me to start doing all interval recoveries at 66% power (after 2x20x5s, 6x1x5s, 5x5x5s, pyramids, etc.). This was to improve my rate of recovery since I had been dropped from a break shortly after a 2-minute bridge. So I did that, and tracked how many beats I recovered in the first minute at 66% for given workout. Over a couple weeks, I could clearly see that I was dropping a lot more beats in the first minute than when I started. It had worked, and I was able to quantify it. There's no way to measure that stuff w/out HR.
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