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-   -   Training Status??? (III) (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/857147-training-status-iii.html)

ovoleg 09-15-13 08:49 PM

Felt a lot of pressure from some friends to do a CX race but I decided against it and plan on focusing on road season instead. I really need a CX bike to be competitive and at this point in time the finances aren't there and I don't find it all that fun on a MTB.
I can probably outfitness the cat 5's no problem, but from watching the race this morning, the cat 5's looked like people who rarely ride bikes(no hate just sayin). There were maybe 3 cyclist on teams I recognized, the others were unattached just showed up to have some fun and race around(and drink beer haha).

The Cat 3/4's are where my friends are and no one was racing a MTB there. Looking at the guys who I raced road with, they were lapping this dude who I could barely keep up with when I was on my MTB in practice...and these were all guys I could keep up with no problem on the road. At this point I just don't want to spend money driving to races and paying race fees when I can't be competitive with people of equivalent fitness.

TLDR: Not racing cross this year, focusing hard on road for next year!

3.5 hours today in Z2 with a friend riding all over the area. Felt good but had to resist not hammering the hills like I normally do, just sat up and 200W'd the whole way up.

jsutkeepspining 09-15-13 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectastic (Post 16060500)
so running is supposed to be a more intense cardio workout. how do you guys integrate running into your routine?>

okay, i see this alot from newer riders. I think the main thing people see in running is the ability to run hard in any conditions/right out your door. Where as for cycling you need some open space to actually ride hard for a long time (My 20 minute-1 hour interval area is 15 minutes away, not a big deal if i have time to ride to the area, do my intervals, then struggle home, but if i only have say an hour to ride it's harder to find a place to ride hard within say 10 minutes or less from my house). I don't think however that running is useful for cyclists. Just like anything, something is better than nothing, but running over cycling should not be a racers training plan. Specificity is king. Ride more and you will get faster (As long as you don't just ride in z1 all day ever day, although this can make you faster if you start this plan while overly fatigued).

ovoleg 09-15-13 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining (Post 16069505)
okay, i see this alot from newer riders. I think the main thing people see in running is the ability to run hard in any conditions/right out your door. Where as for cycling you need some open space to actually ride hard for a long time (My 20 minute-1 hour interval area is 15 minutes away, not a big deal if i have time to ride to the area, do my intervals, then struggle home, but if i only have say an hour to ride it's harder to find a place to ride hard within say 10 minutes or less from my house). I don't think however that running is useful for cyclists. Just like anything, something is better than nothing, but running over cycling should not be a racers training plan. Specificity is king. Ride more and you will get faster (As long as you don't just ride in z1 all day ever day, although this can make you faster if you start this plan while overly fatigued).

I tend to agree with this but no data to back this up, I have read a few articles that argue for cross training and some that argue against it. I only run when I'm on a work trip or vacation...and I tend to regret it when I get home to my bike because my knees, quads, hams, core and everything else is in massive soreness/pain. Usually it takes me a week for my body to feel normal again after running.

carpediemracing 09-15-13 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovoleg (Post 16069442)
just sat up and 200W'd the whole way up.

This is far harder than I can ride consistently on a training ride and even 45-60 minute races.

Fitness is one thing and it can be very deceiving. For hills fitness is king. For time trials it's king. For crits and any flatter races fitness is simply one aspect of racing. I'm not an aerobically gifted rider. If I average over 200w in a crit I'm so blown I can't sprint. The races where I do well I'm typically averaging 160-180w when I'm "in shape". When I say "well" I mean well enough to upgrade to Cat 2. When I'm not in shape 160w avg is above my limits.

Fitness gets you places but it only gets you so far in tactical and technical situations. You need to learn to deal with technique (cornering, for example) and tactics (how to draft effectively, how to make moves). If you rely only on fitness then you're shorting yourself in a big, big way.

The more fit a rider is the more the tendency is to waste energy. Ride like you're weak and you'll place like you're strong.

mattm 09-15-13 11:19 PM

2.5 hours today, ended up being a decent week of training.

ovoleg 09-16-13 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpediemracing (Post 16069636)
This is far harder than I can ride consistently on a training ride and even 45-60 minute races.

Fitness is one thing and it can be very deceiving. For hills fitness is king. For time trials it's king. For crits and any flatter races fitness is simply one aspect of racing. I'm not an aerobically gifted rider. If I average over 200w in a crit I'm so blown I can't sprint. The races where I do well I'm typically averaging 160-180w when I'm "in shape". When I say "well" I mean well enough to upgrade to Cat 2. When I'm not in shape 160w avg is above my limits.

Fitness gets you places but it only gets you so far in tactical and technical situations. You need to learn to deal with technique (cornering, for example) and tactics (how to draft effectively, how to make moves). If you rely only on fitness then you're shorting yourself in a big, big way.

The more fit a rider is the more the tendency is to waste energy. Ride like you're weak and you'll place like you're strong.

I'm a fairly big guy @ 77kg(170lbs) and I wouldn't say I ride very aero due to my frontal area(although I got a professional fit by a pretty good fitter in the area). In races I sit in pretty much most of the race unless I see a break go off with people I know can hold it. I only raced with power like 2-3 times but looking at the power files:

228W: First race of the season with a stacked field and epic sandbaggers, I got gapped and had to chase for 30mins OTF with another guy, never did get up to the break but me and the other guy chased the whole race. I wasn't in great shape for this race and I was fairly cooked when I pulled in.

222W: Second race of the season, caught behind a crash and tried to help a teammate bridge back up to the rest of the field, blew myself up pulling then chased hard for about 20mins with 4 dudes.

Then the next races avg was 205, 178, 198, and 217.

The last race I did with power was a road race where I felt good the whole race and I blew the sprint finish when my pedal unclipped, that race avg: 204W.

But I agree with you! Def need to conserve as much as possible!

carpediemracing 09-16-13 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovoleg (Post 16070288)
I'm a fairly big guy @ 77kg(170lbs)

That is my lightest weight this year until this morning when I broke 169. I was 181 in March this year. In 2009 I was racing at 200 down to 185.

Hida Yanra 09-16-13 10:01 AM

Rollers last night for 45',
Heading out for 2h today w/ coach - this peaking work is miserable.... just wanna go, but not allowed to. (yes rwaki - that's for you)

fly to CO in two days - just loaded the track bike, wheels, and gear into the van with those that are driving.

rkwaki 09-16-13 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hida Yanra (Post 16071059)
just wanna go, but not allowed to. (yes rwaki - that's for you)

That's what she said...

Hida Yanra 09-16-13 01:29 PM

okay - last session done.
Ride w/ coach, talking through the plan for the upcoming 4 days of racing. Four sprints and one 90% kilo effort over 3 h.
Legs feel the best I recall them ever feeling, time to eat, stretch, and be smart.

waterrockets 09-16-13 09:46 PM

First ride of a build block. ZCI™s: averaged about 3.2 W/kg, and couldn't manage the 6th one. Well that sucks. Maybe I'll just race on a one-day license next year.

I'll stay the course and see how much the threshold workouts help (2x/week) for the next 3 weeks...

mattm 09-16-13 10:58 PM

1.5 hours today easy.

went up to 100 bpm a few times (50% max hr).

ovoleg 09-17-13 07:04 AM

Commute in today...I am not sure where the summer went cause I don't think it was ever here for longer than 2 weeks. WTF is this weather in September? Ohioans are brave brave souls.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...oldweather.jpg

rbart4506 09-17-13 07:43 PM

2hrs tonight with 5x3min Power intervals...

Fall is setting in with the cooler temps and heavy winds...

mattm 09-17-13 09:21 PM

Rode around for 1.5 hours before the sun went down, felt GREAT after recovery ride yesterday.

Did some 30" sprints up a section of Altamont that has a nice short downhill leading to a short uphill of 5-8%. It hurt.

mike868y 09-18-13 06:57 AM

training question


so i'm taking basically all of january off (23 days in costa rica/panamahttp://socialcyclists.org/Smileys/fa...ys/smile01.gif ). would like to be in race shape by battenkill time (still not sure if i'll be in new england or the mid atlantic next spring, but there are enough spring races in both regions that I'd like to be in race shape in april/may). my plan right now is to start putting big miles in in november and add some threshold/low vo2 in during december (with a lot of that work being intervals in the middle/end of long rides, which I've found to be pretty effective). when i get back do as many hours as I can in february with some threshold work towards the end of february then start proper build work in mid march. does this sound reasonable? obviously taking january off isn't ideal, but i think I can make it work. traditionally i think i've wasted a lot of time with months of base work (like october-december of just big z2 miles) without ramping up the intensity enough. hopefully taking january off will help me avoid that mid winter burn out and keep me hungry deeper into the season. not racing collegiate in friggin february will help too.

Flatballer 09-18-13 06:59 AM

Felt AWESOME yesterday evening. Absolutely flying (relatively). A normal tempo ride for me averages around 155-160 with stop signs and lights and stuff. My FTP is around 220. Yesterday I averaged 180 for an hour, second half was like 185. NP was around 210, but all steady state except for a few climbs around 300-350. I felt like I could roll along at 230-240 without too much trouble, felt real nice.

I'm guessing it's just having a good week, followed by a week off for sickness and rest, and then it was also cool and fall like last night.

Creatre 09-18-13 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike868y (Post 16078292)
training question


so i'm taking basically all of january off (23 days in costa rica/panamahttp://socialcyclists.org/Smileys/fa...ys/smile01.gif ). would like to be in race shape by battenkill time (still not sure if i'll be in new england or the mid atlantic next spring, but there are enough spring races in both regions that I'd like to be in race shape in april/may). my plan right now is to start putting big miles in in november and add some threshold/low vo2 in during december (with a lot of that work being intervals in the middle/end of long rides, which I've found to be pretty effective). when i get back do as many hours as I can in february with some threshold work towards the end of february then start proper build work in mid march. does this sound reasonable? obviously taking january off isn't ideal, but i think I can make it work. traditionally i think i've wasted a lot of time with months of base work (like october-december of just big z2 miles) without ramping up the intensity enough. hopefully taking january off will help me avoid that mid winter burn out and keep me hungry deeper into the season. not racing collegiate in friggin february will help too.

Sounds fairly close to what I'd do. However, I wouldn't do any top end work before your trip. That'll be gone when you get back from the trip, whereas any endurance/threshold progress you made will still be there, you just gotta kinda open it back up and find it with a couple weeks of training post trip.

If it was me I'd take a couple weeks off now, then do a block of low to mid z2/high volume, then do two blocks of z2 with 2 days a week sst or sub threshold and one day 5hr+ long ride. Take the trip. Do a block of z2 and threshold, then start throwing in some vo2/top end work and racing to prep for Battenkill.

I'll be taking about a week and a half off at the beginning of January for a trip myself, so in a similar situation. Though I won't be doing Battenkill this year, that was a solid one time pain/suffering experience. :)

ljrichar 09-18-13 07:26 AM

For those of you also racing cross...

I've noticed that the races around around here tend to start off like a VO2 interval for the first lap (~6') & then settle into FTP for the remainder (~39'). So last night I changed up my 2x20's by doing the first 5' as a VO2 interval, immediately followed by 15' @FTP. Ended up with my highest 20' AP for the year. Also NP was only 1w off so it was pretty consistent. Anyone else do something similar? Thanks.

waterrockets 09-18-13 08:19 AM

2.5 hours commute plus 6:30am hammer ride. Always a couple state champ jerseys in this group -- good fun.

rkwaki 09-18-13 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterrockets (Post 16078570)
2.5 hours commute plus 6:30am hammer ride. Always a couple state champ jerseys in this group -- good fun.

2.5 hour commute? Do you ride one way or another 2.5 hours home?

mike868y 09-18-13 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creatre (Post 16078387)
Sounds fairly close to what I'd do. However, I wouldn't do any top end work before your trip. That'll be gone when you get back from the trip, whereas any endurance/threshold progress you made will still be there, you just gotta kinda open it back up and find it with a couple weeks of training post trip.

If it was me I'd take a couple weeks off now, then do a block of low to mid z2/high volume, then do two blocks of z2 with 2 days a week sst or sub threshold and one day 5hr+ long ride. Take the trip. Do a block of z2 and threshold, then start throwing in some vo2/top end work and racing to prep for Battenkill.

I'll be taking about a week and a half off at the beginning of January for a trip myself, so in a similar situation. Though I won't be doing Battenkill this year, that was a solid one time pain/suffering experience. :)

thanks for the comments. yeah, wasn't sure how much the pre trip vo2 work would be "worth it." i'm currently in my off season break and will focus on weight loss/off the bike stuff through october (will probably still ride 8-10 hours/week).

waterrockets 09-18-13 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 16078616)
2.5 hour commute? Do you ride one way or another 2.5 hours home?

Sorry for ambiguity: hammer ride plus commute = 2.5 hours. Commute is only ~20 minutes...

ovoleg 09-18-13 05:39 PM

Lots of mental preparation went into doing 2x20's today. For some reason 20min intervals really psyche me out. I always think I'm going to crack 10mins in...Once I get on the bike and start off easy and ramp up its not so bad but leading up to the ride I get flustered.

It was fairly chilly tonight!

shovelhd 09-18-13 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike868y (Post 16078759)
thanks for the comments. yeah, wasn't sure how much the pre trip vo2 work would be "worth it." i'm currently in my off season break and will focus on weight loss/off the bike stuff through october (will probably still ride 8-10 hours/week).

Agreed on the work above threshold. I'd JRA/tempo myself to death right before the trip to build base and lose weight.


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