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  1. #9626
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    90% FTP is something you can do for much longer than an hour, so if you are doing 20 min efforts, it should be an effort, at or over 100% in my book. If you are working on SST/sub FTP it should be near or greater than an hour or just used for recovery/pacing in my book. Just because the guy finished the tour doesn't mean he knows how to train, just because me or someone else says it doesn't make it so either. Any amount of work will help you be a better cyclist, I use to train at SST for 20-40 hours a week. It made me very strong but was a horrible waste of time and very inefficient.

    I mostly train by going over/at power under duration, rest and repeat, the other option is under power over duration, rest and repeat. To me that is interval training, the only time I would go under power and under duration would be high intensity (sub 2 minutes) with very short recovery (under one minute) to work on recovery. Anything where you go less power and less duration is not making very good use of your time if it is a day to get work done. It will do something and can eventually work, but I will tell anyone that is not an efficient way to train.
    Regarding his training/coaching chops, you're incorrect. It's his job, and he and his athletes are successful.

    I understand where you're coming from, but this 2x20 @ 90% workout is in the quiver, not a cornerstone. It would be like a transition workout near the end of base, like do 2 hours at tempo, then 2x20 @ 90%. Also useful if there's no real TSS headroom for a more intense workout, but still looking to hit some of the same stress/recovery/adaptations.

  2. #9627
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Regarding his training/coaching chops, you're incorrect. It's his job, and he and his athletes are successful.
    I agree it is a workout, my issue was calling it an interval ... which is really just semantics and the idea that because he was/is a pro he knows how to train - I have seen many people burned by the he is a pro and therefore if I copy parts of what he does I will be better. I think SST training is great for oxygen flow and teaching your body to burn fat, but I don't understand the idea that you would need/want to break it up into two 20 minute sessions, just do the 40 all at once or push it to 90 minutes and make it solid workout. Making it two 20 minute efforts seems more like a hard recovery ride, and why would you do that to yourself - so to me that ride is neither here nor there. I was thinking it would be a good middle/start base effort or for a novice ... but I just I am just nit picking now.

  3. #9628
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I use to train at SST for 20-40 hours a week. It made me very strong but was a horrible waste of time and very inefficient.
    Maybe there is some middle ground to be found here? I can't think of any workout that would not be a horrible waste of time and very inefficient if one did that particular workout 20-40 hours a week. Check out the discussion on training different intensities in "Cutting Edge Cycling" for a scientific take on this - to summarize, it is not either/or, the suggested approach is and. FWIW, a lot of people seem to use SST as a way to start introducing intensity during mid to late base training blocs.

    In other news, at 5am it is 8 degrees Celsius outside - for me, this means it is a great time to start doing dawn patrol rides again. Except I have soreness in both my achilles tendons. I think this means it is time for an involuntary rest day.
    Last edited by Wesley36; 04-21-14 at 05:06 AM.

  4. #9629
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    back from family ski trip in colorado. fantastic conditions. 7 days off the bike, did a group ride on sat and totally slayed it, nearly an all time max W in a county line sprint (I know, dorky but I was feeling good). living at 9700 feet for a week with lots of time above 12,000, idk if that could that have influenced my oxygen uptake but I felt fantastic on very little sleep. no wonder tetonrider kicks so much ass when he descends down to take on us low-landers!

  5. #9630
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    20 to 40 hours per week @ SST range? you sure you have your definitions of SST right? i dont think the boys of team sky could do that and recover from it, hell, I dont think the boys from USPS or Telekom could have done that and recovered from it.

  6. #9631
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    There's some weird training routines being promoted here.

  7. #9632
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    20 to 40 hours per week @ SST range? you sure you have your definitions of SST right? i dont think the boys of team sky could do that and recover from it, hell, I dont think the boys from USPS or Telekom could have done that and recovered from it.
    I smell some bs, or a very under-estimated ftp...

    I have a nice 1.5 hour z1 ride today. I'm excited!
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  8. #9633
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    I smell some bs, or a very under-estimated ftp...
    Guessing the workout wasn't from a pro.

  9. #9634
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    20 to 40 hours per week @ SST range? you sure you have your definitions of SST right? i dont think the boys of team sky could do that and recover from it, hell, I dont think the boys from USPS or Telekom could have done that and recovered from it.
    My thoughts exactly. My understanding is that SST is ~90% (+/-2%) of FTP.
    Regards,
    Chuck

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  10. #9635
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    last Wednesday 1 hour on trainer: 18x (40s+20s). Friday: VO2MAX 20X (15s+15s): Saturday: LT 8x (3+1)
    15" is not really targeting V02MAX.

  11. #9636
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
    My thoughts exactly. My understanding is that SST is ~90% (+/-2%) of FTP.
    I was not meaning to be precise, but was riding over 600 miles a week back then and had just one speed - just under threshold. I read about some pros in the 80s who trained 700 mile weeks to prep for the tour and figured I needed to do the same for my 45 min crits and 20 mile TTs, but I was going pro too I was young and had no life and no clue about anything. I started out a 20 mph on each ride and then would hold it until I dropped and then ride home. So while I am sure I was not at 90% FTP for the whole ride, every ride, that was my style and I would categorize every ride as an SST, every day - go just under as hard as you can and hold it. I only trained with a speedometer, my final week of training before blowing a gasket was over 700 miles ... an no I did not average 20 mph for the entire 700 miles, but that was just my only ride goal - and I would say I was near SST for most of my rides. I was not riding smart.

    My point was to place a dig on blindly following advice from pros without a complete package, and that SST training should be longer than 20 minutes and not considered an interval, in my book. Neither of which was really needed at the time, but I added my 2 cents anyways.

    So yes I am the guy on the internet who rides for 4 hours at SST and then sprints at 40 mph ... and of course the answer to that is no chance.

  12. #9637
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    15" is not really targeting V02MAX.
    if 15/15 is 15 seconds on and 15 seconds off it could be. I can't imagine what that would do to me 20 times over, but sounds like my 30s on and 30s off session (aka madison) which I consider V02Max and do to exhaustion.

  13. #9638
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I was not meaning to be precise, but was riding over 600 miles a week back then and had just one speed - just under threshold. I read about some pros in the 80s who trained 700 mile weeks to prep for the tour and figured I needed to do the same for my 45 min crits and 20 mile TTs, but I was going pro too I was young and had no life and no clue about anything. I started out a 20 mph on each ride and then would hold it until I dropped and then ride home. So while I am sure I was not at 90% FTP for the whole ride, every ride, that was my style and I would categorize every ride as an SST, every day - go just under as hard as you can and hold it. I only trained with a speedometer, my final week of training before blowing a gasket was over 700 miles ... an no I did not average 20 mph for the entire 700 miles, but that was just my only ride goal - and I would say I was near SST for most of my rides. I was not riding smart.

    My point was to place a dig on blindly following advice from pros without a complete package, and that SST training should be longer than 20 minutes and not considered an interval, in my book. Neither of which was really needed at the time, but I added my 2 cents anyways.

    So yes I am the guy on the internet who rides for 4 hours at SST and then sprints at 40 mph ... and of course the answer to that is no chance.
    ...20 mph is sst? ouch slow poke
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  14. #9639
    bf is my facebook. ljrichar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    if 15/15 is 15 seconds on and 15 seconds off it could be. I can't imagine what that would do to me 20 times over, but sounds like my 30s on and 30s off session (aka madison) which I consider V02Max and do to exhaustion.
    Just going by the book.

    "Typical intensity of longer (3-8 min) intervals intended to increase VO2max. Strong to severe sensations of leg effort/fatigue, such that completion of more than 30-40 min total training time is difficult at best. Conversation not possible due to often 'ragged' breathing. Should generally be attempted only when adequately recovered from prior training - consecutive days of level 5 work not necessarily desirable even if possible. Note: At this level, the average heart rate may not be due to slowness of heart rate response and/or ceiling imposed by maximum heart rate)"

  15. #9640
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    ^vo2max is just the maximum rate of oxygen consumption per mass that an individual can take in (that might not be exact definition, but you get the idea), so getting to that physiological point can be done in ways differing from doing 3 to 8 min intervals, including multiple shorter intervals with short rest in between reps.

  16. #9641
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I was not meaning to be precise, but was riding over 600 miles a week back then and had just one speed - just under threshold. I read about some pros in the 80s who trained 700 mile weeks to prep for the tour and figured I needed to do the same for my 45 min crits and 20 mile TTs, but I was going pro too I was young and had no life and no clue about anything.
    Okay, now I get it. I think we've all been there and done that.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  17. #9642
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    I smell some bs, or a very under-estimated ftp...

    I have a nice 1.5 hour z1 ride today. I'm excited!
    How is it possible to ride a bike in Z1? What bpm is that? I thought Z2 was recovery ride territory.

  18. #9643
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    Just going by the book.
    "Typical ...
    Typical is the key word here. 30on 30off is something I consider to be at the top of my Vo2Max work - way more pain than 3-8 minute efforts for me - working the same system in a different way. I have never tried 15/15, but that seems to just be a different way to do the say thing ... if repeated enough. The key is level of effort, so if you are not as well trained a 15/15 would likely be the same as a 30/30. although I would be worried about too much ATP stuff at the 15/15 level I am always mixing up my training systems. I love tossing 10-30 efforts on top of 10 minute FTP work or 5 minute VO2 Max work. Makes it more race like to mix up your energy systems.

  19. #9644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    How is it possible to ride a bike in Z1? What bpm is that? I thought Z2 was recovery ride territory.
    Nope. Z1 is less than 55% of FTP. If you're riding slowly enough to feel guilty, you're probably in Z1. Z2 is your normal "just riding around" pace, 55-75% of FTP. For a recovery ride, you want to NOT create a training stress.

    Edit: Recovery ride HR is <68% of FTHR. For context, my FTHR is ~160 bpm (I'm 62, and it decreases as you age), and I keep my recovery rides in the ballpark of 100 bpm.
    Last edited by revchuck; 04-21-14 at 10:08 AM.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
    Okay, now I get it. I think we've all been there and done that.
    And I blew up something fierce ... it was a bad bad time. I still can't understand how it took me 20 years to figure out a training plan for myself.

  21. #9646
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    And I blew up something fierce ... it was a bad bad time. I still can't understand how it took me 20 years to figure out a training plan for myself.
    I started similarly misguided, though only around 300 miles/week. Burned out with a bright flash.

  22. #9647
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    How is it possible to ride a bike in Z1? What bpm is that? I thought Z2 was recovery ride territory.
    ...you joking right? z1 is the greatest thing out there. I love it and it makes me happy
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  23. #9648
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
    Nope. Z1 is less than 55% of FTP. If you're riding slowly enough to feel guilty, you're probably in Z1. Z2 is your normal "just riding around" pace, 55-75% of FTP. For a recovery ride, you want to NOT create a training stress.

    Edit: Recovery ride HR is <68% of FTHR. For context, my FTHR is ~160 bpm (I'm 62, and it decreases as you age), and I keep my recovery rides in the ballpark of 100 bpm.
    Oh ok, I was just looking it up. I got it mixed up with heart rate zones. Just got a 500 bundle in the mail so I'll be using heart rates to do some workouts as a powermeter is still too much of an investment.

  24. #9649
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  25. #9650
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    Chagrin Falls? Say hello to Rocky and Bullwinkle for me.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

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