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  1. #9651
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    I think you've used that joke before old man...
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  2. #9652
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    I think you've used that joke before old man...
    Could be, you know how us codgers get in our dotage.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  3. #9653
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    sorry i don't understand your old people words
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  4. #9654
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    So how do you guys decide if it's a recovery ride day or a rest day? I'm sore from this weekend but it's nice out today and was thinking of doing an hour ride after work, but don't know if I should rest and hope the weather holds up for tomorrow. But then tomorrow, it wouldn't be a recovery ride.

  5. #9655
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    why not just ride easy for an hour today? I rarely take full days off. I feel stiff and terrible the next day. Look at the ride i posted. I was rode at a snails pace and just relaxed to open up my muscles.
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  6. #9656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    So how do you guys decide if it's a recovery ride day or a rest day? I'm sore from this weekend but it's nice out today and was thinking of doing an hour ride after work, but don't know if I should rest and hope the weather holds up for tomorrow. But then tomorrow, it wouldn't be a recovery ride.
    For me, it's an either/or thing. If the weather's nice this afternoon, I'd ride just to be able to ride in nice weather. Force yourself to keep it in the recovery ride range - it's easy to mess this up and go too hard on an easy day. If some folks blow by you, just let them go.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  7. #9657
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    Couch intervals tonight... 2 sets of NHL playoffs with a few innings of MLB to switch it up a bit.

    Went hard Saturday, recovery Sunday... Tues/Sat/Sun races this week.

  8. #9658
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    why not just ride easy for an hour today? I rarely take full days off. I feel stiff and terrible the next day. Look at the ride i posted. I was rode at a snails pace and just relaxed to open up my muscles.
    You sound old.

  9. #9659
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Ride hard a lot, get your ctl up to like 115 and set your ftp to a legit bleeding-eyeballs-pace-if-i-ride-this-hard-for-an-hour. Then do whatever you want for only an hour and get 70tss and it's still a recovery day.

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  10. #9660
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    ^^ I wish my coach would let me do that.... I have a day off today, and it's like 75 degrees and perfect out. blah.
    ...

  11. #9661
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valygrl View Post
    ^^ I wish my coach would let me do that.... I have a day off today, and it's like 75 degrees and perfect out. blah.
    if your coach is preventing you from an enjoyable small-ring recovery ride at walking pace, that sucks. I would just skip that day's plan and do the recovery ride.

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  12. #9662
    Senior Member TexMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    15" is not really targeting V02MAX.
    well it's a VOMAX booster program i'm trying out and it says to do all out 15 seconds with 15 sec rest at 100%.

  13. #9663
    Senior Member TexMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    if 15/15 is 15 seconds on and 15 seconds off it could be. I can't imagine what that would do to me 20 times over, but sounds like my 30s on and 30s off session (aka madison) which I consider V02Max and do to exhaustion.
    yes it's 15 seconds all out with 15 seconds active recovery.

  14. #9664
    Senior Member TexMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    So how do you guys decide if it's a recovery ride day or a rest day? I'm sore from this weekend but it's nice out today and was thinking of doing an hour ride after work, but don't know if I should rest and hope the weather holds up for tomorrow. But then tomorrow, it wouldn't be a recovery ride.
    I read somewhere "recovery" rides can be "junk miles" hence for some people is better to take a day off. The argument was that "recovery rides" work well for pros who are well trained than your average cyclist. I think it's different for everyone.

  15. #9665
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Recovery ride day is rest day for me. My recovery rides have the training stress of say, making dinner or going for a walk.

  16. #9666
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    I read somewhere "recovery" rides can be "junk miles" hence for some people is better to take a day off. The argument was that "recovery rides" work well for pros who are well trained than your average cyclist. I think it's different for everyone.
    "I read somewhere" doesn't give me a high level of confidence in your source. Recovery miles aren't junk miles, and aren't only for pros. If you do a hard weekend *for you*, a recovery ride helps with clearing the gunk out of your body. Plus, it feels good to just noodle around once in a while.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  17. #9667
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    junk miles = riding 300 miles a week because you heard other guys ride 300 miles a week and you are only at 250, so that means 50 more miles this week. Recovery ride is between hard days or during rest weeks and used to get the blood flowing at a level that adds little to no training stress but has positive effects to your health in general. Like aaronmcd said it is like going for a walk, it just feels good. Skipping your recovery ride day is not a bad thing and will generally not hurt your fitness/season at all, however why avoid things that feel good - some say they are flat the next day if they miss it. Skipping your junk mile ride day will likely help you avoid running into the wall of training suck.

  18. #9668
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    20' test today. Hit my goal, but it wasn't lofty. FTP probably only just below 3.5 W/kg. Worked out well sending my teammate off 30" ahead of me. Pulled back 7" at one point, but fell back to the 30" gap again at the end. Good to have him up there as a rabbit (and he'd rather be chased anyway).

    Wrapped it up with another 20 minutes of 2-man rotations for an SST-like effort then easy spin back to the office.

  19. #9669
    Senior Member TexMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
    "I read somewhere" doesn't give me a high level of confidence in your source. Recovery miles aren't junk miles, and aren't only for pros. If you do a hard weekend *for you*, a recovery ride helps with clearing the gunk out of your body. Plus, it feels good to just noodle around once in a while.
    Chuck- It's a Doc specializing in training cyclist in belgium. Jesper Bondo Medhus.

  20. #9670
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    20' test today. Hit my goal, but it wasn't lofty. FTP probably only just below 3.5 W/kg. Worked out well sending my teammate off 30" ahead of me. Pulled back 7" at one point, but fell back to the 30" gap again at the end. Good to have him up there as a rabbit (and he'd rather be chased anyway).
    Sounds like a smart way to do a 20 minute effort, good job. It amazes me how a rabbit off the front is such an effective carrot ... which for me spoiled my training ride yesterday. I was to do a 2 hour zone 2 ride, saw a rider on a 10 minute climb and thought he is going slower I'll just catch him by the top and I did. Woke up with sore legs this morning which shouldn't be the case after a rest week and a zone 2 ride, checked strava ... almost a 1 minute pr on the climb for me ... oops so much for that zone 2 ride.

  21. #9671
    bf is my facebook. ljrichar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    Typical is the key word here. 30on 30off is something I consider to be at the top of my Vo2Max work - way more pain than 3-8 minute efforts for me - working the same system in a different way. I have never tried 15/15, but that seems to just be a different way to do the say thing ... if repeated enough. The key is level of effort, so if you are not as well trained a 15/15 would likely be the same as a 30/30. although I would be worried about too much ATP stuff at the 15/15 level I am always mixing up my training systems. I love tossing 10-30 efforts on top of 10 minute FTP work or 5 minute VO2 Max work. Makes it more race like to mix up your energy systems.
    If you're doing 30's that hard, you're doing AC work. Typical is the key word here as most everyone who trains with power goes by the zones established by Allen/Coggan.

    Power Training Levels | TrainingPeaks

  22. #9672
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    Sounds like a smart way to do a 20 minute effort, good job. It amazes me how a rabbit off the front is such an effective carrot ... which for me spoiled my training ride yesterday. I was to do a 2 hour zone 2 ride, saw a rider on a 10 minute climb and thought he is going slower I'll just catch him by the top and I did. Woke up with sore legs this morning which shouldn't be the case after a rest week and a zone 2 ride, checked strava ... almost a 1 minute pr on the climb for me ... oops so much for that zone 2 ride.
    Yeah, not real resty there.

    This teammate and I have been riding together at lunch for 8 years now. We know what it takes to beat each other, which results in a lot of near-ties.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    If you're doing 30's that hard, you're doing AC work.
    It depends.

    30" with a full recovery, then it's AWC. But with a limited recovery, I look at the average power of the set. It should end up with the work intervals in the low end of AWC, but for a duration where they should be the very high end of AWC. My first one might be 1000W, but I'm going to fall to 450 pretty fast.

  23. #9673
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    If you're doing 30's that hard, you're doing AC work. Typical is the key word here as most everyone who trains with power goes by the zones established by Allen/Coggan.
    They focus on FTP and percent of FTP way too much - I don't buy into the lactate training based on % of FTP levels.

    You have 3 basic energy systems that you gear your training based on ... sprint/ATP, Aerobic(fat/glycogen), and Lactate in the middle and most everything we do is a combination of the three and playing off them in different ways. IMO they key to making your self a better bike racer is how you attack the lactate system, not the aerobic system.

    Both AC and Vo2Max are targeting your Lactate system in different ways, although Coggan's AC tends to leverage the ATP/Lactate transition and V02Max tends leverages the Aerobic/Lactate transition. 30/30 workouts are mostly just lactate work, but I would agree hitting from more what coggan would call the AC level for interval one, however by your 2nd set you have not recovered your ATP so it is almost pure lactate and during a one hour madison during your 60th straight set you are pretty much just converting bile to energy and using momentum to finish it up. I have no idea what to call that energy system, but it is something I recommend all cyclist try at least once.

    I tend to play with my Lactate transitions a lot during my training - I would consider it the cornerstone of my training. However I tend to lump all my lactate training into one bucket vs the V02Max and AC just to make it simple. Aerobic is the base, and sprint is the peak, but without lactate it is unlikely you will see the pointy end of the race.

  24. #9674
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    Chuck- It's a Doc specializing in training cyclist in belgium. Jesper Bondo Medhus.
    Actually, he's a Dane. I wouldn't have known if it weren't for Google.

    I didn't find anything where he referred to recovery rides as junk miles. The closest I found was this (from here):

    2.Eliminate everything that does not make you stronger

    If you perform training that doesn’t make you a stronger rider (e.g. junk miles), try to eliminate this from your training and do more of the training that takes you closer to your goal.
    Junk miles steal focus and don’t significantly improve your fitness.
    I can see how one might infer from this that all non-interval training = junk miles, but that doesn't hold up in the context of the rest of his writing. I found several mentions of active recovery in his other pieces. He's pretty much mainstream.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  25. #9675
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Took yesterday off so I went out to do the Noon Ride (easy day) plus some solo miles.
    Still feeling Saturday's race - everything felt plus 40 watts: 40-something minute climb felt horrible, but the descending fun makes it better.

    2:45, 157 TSS

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