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  1. #9851
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    SST has to be the softest training definition of any training I have found - I first heard of it 2 years ago. I consider it to basically be the exact same as tempo riding/hard group ride and don't get all this talk about how it is hard to do for an hour and breaking it up to 3x10 or 2x20 or this and that. I have seen it defined as right at 90% or something like that which makes more sense based on the comments here, but then you read coggan's chart and fascat you get different definitions typically in the 70-100% or 85% to 100% range ... or something else depending on what page and what graph you are looking at.

    So how are we as a group typically defining SST?

    If purely a 90% ride, great, not my ideal training, but if it works for you keep doing it.

    For me I assumed SST is like Example 1 on the fascat website ... Start off the ride just below your threshold wattage around 90 - 95% of your threshold power. Get after it and as you fatigue let your wattage fall between tempo wattages. Then after further fatigue sets in, high zone 2 finishes off the workout.
    aka tempo.

    If you as a rider can tell the difference between a tempo ride at 75% to 90% and break it up from a 70% to 100% ride on your training schedule, great you are better than me ... but I doubt many can. Further what would be the point, this is a very subtle difference that is not going to help 99% of the riders out there ... IMO. What is going to help riders is training their different energy systems to be efficient and sure some subtle differences might help a subtle amount, but a good program always come back to the basics. Get yourself a base, take breaks, add in variety (intervals) when you are ready, increase intensity and duration, add in skill work, etc ... repeat, again and again.

    SST as I defined it was my only training ride for at least 10 years ... I finally figured out things needed to change, but it was a slow process. Basically, that SST still exists as part of my base training, but I highly doubt it would do me any better than a 3 hour group ride or solid JRA/tempo ride on that day. Just the same thing with a different label ... mostly.

    Just trying to get a handle on all the lingo to make sure when I razz someone about their training I am razzing with just razzitude.
    There have been times that I'd set out to just let fatigue slow me down, and that kind of ride covers most of the SST range at some point. I've also enjoyed going out for a terrain driven effort with a lot of variability in hills and wind to end up with a tempo average, in that SST range -- but these are far from a steady effort. The training race approach would end up looking a bit more like a terrain driven effort as well, and would not be steady at all, but I would still consider it to be SST.

    My big break-out season in 2008-2009, when I earned my Cat 2 points, 90% of my threshold work was SST as described in the previous paragraph. My threshold power jumped from 310W to 360W (well, MAP was at 500W anyway -- FTP numbers are elusive for me) as my weight dropped from 183 lbs to 169 lbs (dieting hard). That was a really good year. It can be effective.

    Also, speaking with a local coach who recently won the US elite crit championships, SST is exactly what he does in a bunch of his training races. He just goes to the front and drags the pack along until someone comes around him, then he recovers for a bit and goes back to the front when the pace lets up slightly. So he's rarely doing any real hard riding, but never riding easy, and not riding steady. He's also been the TX state TT champ a couple times.

  2. #9852
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Yeah, training dictates it, but say you're a sprinter, racing Cat 3 in a flat race that's one of your C races. Does it make sense to sit in the pack and wait until the finish? You're barely getting any training at all. Why not broaden your horizons and do some attacking, chasing, and bridging? Unless you're riding base, this seems like a more valuable use of your time.

    As misterwaterfall said too, the team thing can really have an impact here. Reeling in a break for your sprinter, and pulling part of the leadout train can be great ways to get SST (NP anyway), still actually race, and still treat it as a C race for yourself.
    If I know a course doesn't set up well for me, I just don't race it now. I think if I had a more active team or teammates in my cat, I'd be more inclined to race it as a C race and mix it up on their behalf. However, that isn't the case now, so I skip out on some races. Generally, in the races I do enter, I want to do well, but there are a few where I will just jump in and see what happens with no clear plan or goal/desired outcome.

    I reckon' that will change witht time though.

  3. #9853
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    8x3x3s sans scooby doo. Headwinds on climbs make a huge difference. Also make sure you fix the right flat, or you end up spending 30 minutes on the side of the road...
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  4. #9854
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    An hour of SST is about as hard for me as a set of 2x20's. Easier because the power is down, harder because there is no break. What I find to be harder than both is 90-120 minutes of tempo, especially on the road in varying terrain. The last 30 minutes is both physically and mentally exhausting. A lot of people don't train with tempo but it really jump starts intensity for me. When I take a break during the season it is tempo that brings me back quickly. It's also a great way to lose weight.

  5. #9855
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    I think that explains the 90% SST in TT mode that some are calling intervals vs the tempo ride version of the SST where power varies a lot more. It is made even worse for me as I do long TTs at 90% of my threshold, based on a threshold from NP power from hard lactate hill intervals at 90 minutes or races ... basically two totally different numbers for me.

    100 minute zone 2/3 JRA for me today.

  6. #9856
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    wow you guys are really nit picky. I just ride my bike...
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  7. #9857
    Senior Member rideaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    wow you guys are really nit picky. I just ride my bike...
    Me too!

  8. #9858
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Did 3 sets of 20" hard, 20" off, for ~6 mins on a ~3% climb (bottom of Moody).

    First two didn't hurt enough, so the last set was 20" on, 10" off.

    Ok that one hurt just about right!! Hadn't really caught my breath when it was time for the next go, which I guess is these point of these.

    Also, it was like 90 f-ing degrees out!!
    cat 1.

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  9. #9859
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Did a short portion of the Tuesday Night Worlds then some strength training. Took it easy out there although it was harder than it should have been. I need to start riding the hills again.

  10. #9860
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    wow you guys are really nit picky. I just ride my bike...
    That sounds pretty boring.

  11. #9861
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    couch intervals. I've progressed quite a bit on my coding and new TV shows. My gf seems to like me more
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  12. #9862
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    75' downtown trip to pick up a mothers day gift at REI. Teammate and I explored a bit going through some unfamiliar neighborhoods. Good tempo average for the day to save a bit for the Driveway tomorrow. 35+ category starts up, and I have 3-5 teammates showing up -- gonna be fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    couch intervals. I've progressed quite a bit on my coding and new TV shows. My gf seems to like me more
    sounds like you're making the best of it

  13. #9863
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    couch intervals. I've progressed quite a bit on my coding and new TV shows. My gf seems to like me more
    If you can't exercise the leg muscles, might as well exercise the brain!

    What are you coding?
    cat 1.

    blog

  14. #9864
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    If you can't exercise the leg muscles, might as well exercise the brain!

    What are you coding?
    I've been seriously lagging it for the past few years on updating the simulation I was working on. I promised a few people that I was going to get it going by the end of the year and I'm on track! It simulates a Formula style race-car that is ran at 4 different events(autocross, endurance(same as autocross except longer), straight line accel, and a skidpad(huge figure 8)). I originally slapped the site together using basic html and wrote the whole simulation in javascript(don't ask me why, lol). There are a few quarqs( ) to work out with the simulation and use a more realistic tire model. The model I'm using now is sort of basic(8th order polynomial that is autocalculated based on raw tire data), but I want to move to a more realistic model(Pacejka). If you're bored and want to check it out its:
    FSAE Lap Sim

    The whole site is meh so I'm redoing it with MVC4, re-programming the simulation file to C# and have it run on the server instead of the client, working on a iOS counterpart and maybe if I get adventurous enough do an Android version too.

    Soooo so far I've been learning MVC, which wasn't too hard considering I know quite a bit of WebForms. Brushing up on my C#. I also wasn't familiar with SQL before and in this past week I've got a pretty decent handle on it(granted I'm still pretty noob but now I can write some decent SQL script as opposed to basic select, delete, create, update).

    It's pretty fun so far
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  15. #9865
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    I love physics sims. Have fun with it. I did the 3-d collision detection and response for The Hobbit video game back in the day (before Havok and the like). Then I did the same thing to quickly clear fires missions from friendly volumes (static and dynamic) for the Army.

    You're going to have a blast.

  16. #9866
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Stahl Ride. Pretty easy pace, and no one to chase up the hills today. 64 miles, 175 TSS.

    Had a good tailwind on the first descent - hit 48 mph coasting down the -7% grade.

  17. #9867
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Folsom Bike Race Ride...much warmer today and it made things hurt a lot worse.

    30ish miles with a bunch of rollers and a couple of painful, but not too long climbs thrown in.

  18. #9868
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I've been seriously lagging it for the past few years on updating the simulation I was working on. I promised a few people that I was going to get it going by the end of the year and I'm on track! It simulates a Formula style race-car that is ran at 4 different events(autocross, endurance(same as autocross except longer), straight line accel, and a skidpad(huge figure 8)). I originally slapped the site together using basic html and wrote the whole simulation in javascript(don't ask me why, lol). There are a few quarqs( ) to work out with the simulation and use a more realistic tire model. The model I'm using now is sort of basic(8th order polynomial that is autocalculated based on raw tire data), but I want to move to a more realistic model(Pacejka). If you're bored and want to check it out its:
    FSAE Lap Sim

    The whole site is meh so I'm redoing it with MVC4, re-programming the simulation file to C# and have it run on the server instead of the client, working on a iOS counterpart and maybe if I get adventurous enough do an Android version too.

    Soooo so far I've been learning MVC, which wasn't too hard considering I know quite a bit of WebForms. Brushing up on my C#. I also wasn't familiar with SQL before and in this past week I've got a pretty decent handle on it(granted I'm still pretty noob but now I can write some decent SQL script as opposed to basic select, delete, create, update).

    It's pretty fun so far
    Cool man, site looks pretty slick to me!

    Even if I have no idea what one does with tire simulations, keep it up!!
    cat 1.

    blog

  19. #9869
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Did the Valley Ride with @Ygduf, and he was nice enough to join my break and help drive it!! We stayed away through the first sprint, and up to the climb.. where he proceeded to drope the hammer while I was busy dropping my chain lol.

    Took the last sprint, partially thanks to yg & his team mate.

    Good training, just over 2 hours for 180 TSS for me.
    cat 1.

    blog

  20. #9870
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    After doing some chores this morning I hope to do my first ride since racing on the 19th. April was pretty bad, 6 hours total hours, 3 of which were actual racing, aka at speed (no warm ups so that was it for those race days).
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  21. #9871
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    AAAARGH! Finally starting to feel like I am getting my legs back, looking forward to crits starting up this month, and I scored a long sleeve Gabba jersey off of eBay. Thought I would try out the Gabba, headed out for a dawn patrol ride in the hills.

    All was going well, it was raining but the Gabba was doing its job. I realized that I was running a few minutes behind, so I went to do a u-turn and head for home after finishing the hill I was on. And somehow, wiped out at around 5km/h, about 3/4 through the turn. WTF. Anyhow, seem to have messed up my left thumb/wrist when I landed, I am really hoping it turns out to be a sprain and not a break. Swelling, loss of motion, and tenderness, check. FRACK!

    Worse comes to worse, there is always the trainer with a wrist injury, I guess.

  22. #9872
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Damn, sorry to hear that Wesley36. If it doesn't improve substantially, pretty quickly, I'd go get it checked out.

  23. #9873
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    Lots of couch intervals / watching basketball due to the 4th day of rain in a row. Apparently I live in the Pacific NW now. At least it's going to be above 45 degrees today!

  24. #9874
    Senior Member TexMac's Avatar
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    First day commute to work. 30 miles one way.

    Typical houston weather, it was 85 deg yesterday and woke up this morning 40 degrees.
    Was in no mood for any intervals. Did come across 4 cayotes on my way and luckily they don't like dark meat.

  25. #9875
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    Did the Valley Ride with @Ygduf, and he was nice enough to join my break and help drive it!! We stayed away through the first sprint, and up to the climb.. where he proceeded to drope the hammer while I was busy dropping my chain lol.

    Took the last sprint, partially thanks to yg & his team mate.

    Good training, just over 2 hours for 180 TSS for me.
    2 hours 135tss for me. And partially thanks?! I don't know what Giuessepe was doing. He came around so early I almost went back around you guys. It was like he wanted to give you a better lead-out train!

    twitter.com/ygduf
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