mollusk

So you can output more going uphill? This makes no sense to me. Can't you just suffer as much on the flats?

mattm

i think it has to do with the power/cadence quadrants.

high power/high cadence (flat ground) is harder than high power/low cadence. at least for me.

furiousferret

I've always been stronger on the hills, I think its because if you are geared properly you can set them to spin where you want. On the flats you are dependent on the wind, and around here anything flat has stoplights, slight downhills, or massive amounts of traffic which kill a twenty minute effort.

For me, going up a hill my power is typically higher because there is always some resistance. I also find climbing a tad bit more motivating and scenic as well.



I'd rather cycle here than around a bunch of warehouses and motor homes.

waterrockets 

Same here. Well, until I fixed it anyway.

Enthalpic

Uphill and flat cycling are different, even at the same average power. I've posted citations showing differing EMG profiles before, generally in response to "putting a block under your front wheel while riding a trainer to simulate climbing" threads. If you stop working on a climb you will not only slow to a stop but will start rolling backwards which is different from flat ground or trainer resistance.

Ygduf

try harder? I hadn't thought of that!

it's what I've practiced the most so I am strongest in that position. I've gotten much better at flat-ground power this year (won a merckx tt that was mostly flat) but power-wise it's still 10% off.

waterrockets 

I'm not claiming there aren't differences, for sure. Position and inertia are very different. That said, I still corrected it to the point that my 5' power has tested, to the watt, the same on a 12% hill as on a rolling course with a 45mph descent. At worst, it's multisport training -- at best I just htfu.

aaronmcd

It's so much easier to find a climb for a few miles than a flat road for 13 or whatever. And I'd rather hammer up a climb and have a descent for reward than hammer out a flat and get bored coming back.10% off is huge though.

ShutUpLegs

Had some muscle soreness from my effort in my race this weekend. This week was supposed to be the last week of my hard block before my final peak, but listening to the body and easing back into it.

Gramercy

I rode 30 miles in 90 minutes this morning, fast tempo. Heart rate in the 160's for most of it, going higher on the hills. If I ride 6 or so hours a week for the next two weeks and only do this high intensity where I keep my average speed around 20mph and keeping heart rate in the 160's (zone 4 I guess?) would I be faster in two weeks for my next race? Would I see any difference? What I'm trying to say, is should I bother doing slower rides or vary intensity, or should I just ride very hard every time? I know this goes against most people's trainings, but I would like to hear someone's opinion on positives/negatives of this idea.

I could always try it and report back in the race results thread.

TexMac

40 fast miles with SWCC club. One rider, The state TT champ kept the speed at 28-30 and this forced everyone to work harder

mattm

have you read the Training Bible? If not do so.

If so, read it again.

But at any rate, I doubt two weeks is enough time to see much effect either way.

misterwaterfall

Figure you would do 39 mph for 20 minutes I see. Mid season break instead of heading to the tour this year?

mollusk

If I understand this correctly lots of you guys are claiming to be much stronger if the road goes up. What is the mechanism that makes you stronger if going uphill? Does it have something to do with mitochondria working better in a different gravitational field? Do you get more oxygen per breath if gravity points in a different direction?

I suspect that it is totally psychological. You expect it to hurt when going uphill and therefore are ready to actually hurt more when doing it. I bet that you hurt a lot less when pedaling your "FTP" on the flats because you don't psychologically think it is going to hurt that badly.

furiousferret

My guess is it has more to do with the midi-chlorian count.

Ygduf

It's probably the different muscle groups/muscle balance throughout the stroke given that at 11mph I don't mind sitting up a little higher than I do at 28mph.

I know this is complicated, but let me know if you have further questions.

aaronmcd

Haha I was thinking more 26 mph for 30 minutes.

Ygduf

get back out to the noon ride when you are healed up. 3-man break today for the last 2/3 of it.

aaronmcd

Long route, huh? Last time I remember you otf on that route the chase was so fast I couldn't pull.

Ygduf

it was faster today. dirk kept attacking me, trying to drop the 3rd guy. eventually he let me win the final sprint, but it hurt way too much given the 2 ITTs I have coming Saturday. I was regretting it during, but I couldn't let go.

Moyene Corniche

Short answer... No !!
But you could perform the experiment yourself and go out and ride hard every time... Just to see wether it will work.
The result will be that you will eventually run yourself into the ground. Slower rides are for recuperation / recovery.

1st, as suggested before definitely read Friel's Training Bible. You need to understand how to train using your HR.
What is you resting HR ? what is your Max, Where is your Anearobic Threshold ?, Where is the range where your system is most efficient under load ? Where and how long can you sustain efforts at AT or above ? How many times can you go into that zone and recover ?

The above are all questions that you need answers to if you are going to design and implement a training plan that will give you results.
BTW, 2 weeks is not sufficient. If you really want results in performance upgrades then you need to look at it in a 365 day plan. A full year is really the turn around point. There's a base period, a build phase, a power phase, a speed phase, etc..etc.. All have to work in conjunction so that one phase builds on the previous.
But getting too far ahead, you need first to understand your HR system then come up with a viable training plan..

globecanvas

I find there is a sort of optimal biomechanical groove that maximizes power -- but the groove is totally different on a steep hill vs on the flats. On a steep hill, at max output I get a feeling of being right on top of the gear with my whole body (even when seated). On the flats it's much more in the upper legs and hips, more of a sensation of using my legs as levers rather than pressing down on the pedals.

Just a completely subjective description, of course, but IME it's not just about the watts, there is a real difference in muscle groups and mechanics. Add to that, max power on the flats takes more concentration because you have to focus more mental energy on bike handling at high speeds.

furiousferret

My FTP did not go well today. I didn't sleep all to well the last two nights and didn't really feel fresh. It was 10 watts less than what I did in February and the same as a ride I did last week (with less intensity). When I'm on there is a feeling that I can tear off the cranks and rip out concrete under my back wheel, and I knew it wasn't there before I even stepped on my bike. I did have to get off my bike at the end of it I was so light headed. Oh well, I'd much rather have a bad test day than a bad race day.

Ygduf

for me it is nothing but the change in position. I know how to push myself, but I sacrifice some power on the flats for remaining low and fast. When I climb, power = pace. When on the flats, it's not that way. There's a balance. I still do alright. In my 20min hills I can push around 400. On the Merckx TT I won, it was my 2nd race of the day and I did ~370 on the flats for 24min.

All this mitochondria and "push yourself" talk is needless salt. Frankly, if you're unable to put down more power on a hill you PROBABLY have a ****ty road bike position or you're not a good climber.

waterrockets 

That's exactly how I felt until I trained it out. When I first started winning with 1' attacks, it was always uphill. It had to be or I had no chance. I was hitting 10.4 W/kg in testing, but it had to be on a hill. Then I decided to challenge myself and see what I could figure out for descending/false flat finishes. Hmm. 10.4 W/kg. Again and again. Then I won a race by attacking the 50m descent situated 800m from the finish. Fark gravity, inertia, wind, and positional changes. Fark cadence too, within reason. None of it makes much difference for me with these maximal efforts.

An aero position is a pretty drastic change, but drops to hoods aren't as big of a difference for me. Sure the lungs can open up more in a climbing position, but I'm not breathing at maximum capacity in any effort longer than 5' anyway. Sure the hips are at different angles, and the inertia is different on flats vs. hills, but it's not like the difference between squats and pull-ups.

Don't sell yourself short on flats and rollers, and don't give yourself a pass for results.