Weight Training Discussion/Workouts
10-13-14, 02:56 PM
#126
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Managing injury part...
Son's trainer (and sometimes mine) does NOT have my son doing squats. He does have him doing leg press. Reason he says (using my words) is that squats that more coordination and developed supporting muscles and because of the weight he does (strong legs) there is too much risk of injury until he's been lifting longer (he's <2 years). The discussion went on that I could do squats because, well, I wasn't that strong and my quad/butt wouldn't have me lifting so much more weight than my other muscles can support. The other component being that as cycling it is a better use of time to ride and put on miles rather than focus on developing the other muscles. If he quit riding - we'd do more squats. He has the football kids doing full squats.
Son's trainer (and sometimes mine) does NOT have my son doing squats. He does have him doing leg press. Reason he says (using my words) is that squats that more coordination and developed supporting muscles and because of the weight he does (strong legs) there is too much risk of injury until he's been lifting longer (he's <2 years). The discussion went on that I could do squats because, well, I wasn't that strong and my quad/butt wouldn't have me lifting so much more weight than my other muscles can support. The other component being that as cycling it is a better use of time to ride and put on miles rather than focus on developing the other muscles. If he quit riding - we'd do more squats. He has the football kids doing full squats.
10-13-14, 03:37 PM
#127
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Not doing deads, similar reasons. Are doing considerable upper body. Pull-UPS, chest, rows etc.
Bigger upper can be fuel for lower.
Bigger upper can be fuel for lower.
Last edited by Doge; 10-13-14 at 03:44 PM.
10-13-14, 04:04 PM
#128
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Not questioning your trainer per se, but you're not doing squats because the leg strength exceeds support muscle strength? So you're doing leg press to further imbalance an existing imbalance? Meanwhile, you're taking on accessory exercises/lifts that have exstensive core/stability components when done proper (e.g., rows)? I guess I'm not seeing why squats are being avoided...unless there was something I missed.
10-13-14, 04:27 PM
#129
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Where is @rkwaki and his BS meter and or BS when we need him.
10-13-14, 05:29 PM
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Not questioning your trainer per se, but you're not doing squats because the leg strength exceeds support muscle strength? So you're doing leg press to further imbalance an existing imbalance? Meanwhile, you're taking on accessory exercises/lifts that have exstensive core/stability components when done proper (e.g., rows)? I guess I'm not seeing why squats are being avoided...unless there was something I missed.
The title of this thread had the word discussion in it. So I thought this was discussion worthy.
Trainer was a would champion body builder in the 70s and is a well known masters cyclist. He knows how to do a squat. I found his reasoning interesting.
You will find video of lots of track riders doing squats. I have not seen video of tour pros doing them. I do see video of tour pros using machines. Kittle does upper body work, and while not a climber has 2 UCI world championships in the (junior) TT.
Last edited by Doge; 10-13-14 at 05:33 PM.
10-13-14, 05:33 PM
#131
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^^ this is the exact reason my forays into running have a 100% injury rate, btw. Main leg muscle and cardio are so far ahead of all the other balance/support muscles, I always end up with TMTS somewhere.
10-13-14, 05:46 PM
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Pretty much. Except it is not an imbalance unless you are a body builder or spending time in the weight room. The focus is in developing the cycling muscles - the go forward ones - vs. the keep the bar bell from falling over (think 140# kid under 300#). Squats require a level of coordination and supporting muscles that cycling alone will not give you, and cyclists don't need to have. As I posted - the football guys do squats.
The title of this thread had the word discussion in it. So I thought this was discussion worthy.
Trainer was a would champion body builder in the 70s and is a well known masters cyclist. He knows how to do a squat. I found his reasoning interesting.
You will find video of lots of track riders doing squats. I have not seen video of tour pros doing them. I do see video of tour pros using machines. Kittle does upper body work, and while not a climber has 2 UCI world championships in the (junior) TT.
The title of this thread had the word discussion in it. So I thought this was discussion worthy.
Trainer was a would champion body builder in the 70s and is a well known masters cyclist. He knows how to do a squat. I found his reasoning interesting.
You will find video of lots of track riders doing squats. I have not seen video of tour pros doing them. I do see video of tour pros using machines. Kittle does upper body work, and while not a climber has 2 UCI world championships in the (junior) TT.
10-13-14, 06:14 PM
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A squat uses a lot.of other muscles to complete this is correct, but those not being relative to a cyclist is very much incorrect. A standard squat is a staple exercise. It targets many legs muscles which cyclists use everyday. It also requires the engagement of the core and back. Both of which are equally important as your legs. Developing a strong core directly affects your cycling and allows you to transfer more power to the pedals same with lower back. The balance require for the squat activates these muscles...a leg press does not. I'd question your trainer.
10-13-14, 06:17 PM
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Did any of you guys actually read what the guy wrote?
The kid would, in order to get an effective workout on the muscles he uses for cycling, have to squat weights far above what he is prepared for in that the supporting muscles are not as developed as the primary cycling ones.
So, he could lift safely for months and get no benefit in cycling while slowly building up his squats, or he can do leg presses safely now for gain and build up the squat some other year.
The kid would, in order to get an effective workout on the muscles he uses for cycling, have to squat weights far above what he is prepared for in that the supporting muscles are not as developed as the primary cycling ones.
So, he could lift safely for months and get no benefit in cycling while slowly building up his squats, or he can do leg presses safely now for gain and build up the squat some other year.
10-13-14, 06:32 PM
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BTW - thank you for actually reading what I wrote - and rewording it. I don't know how much the kid part has to do with it, other than the athlete is undeveloped. It might take a non-lifting adult as long to work up. What is true in both kids and those new to weight lifting adults - is muscle grows faster than the supporting muscles and ligaments. That might be an argument for squats. But the recommendation was do squats and go light.
If your cycling muscles can handle 1.5X as much as your supporting muscles then you have to choose to strengthen the supporters, or focus on the go forward ones. Also the reps are kept low (heavy) and can be - because its safe and safe to do a max, where not so much in a squat.
If your cycling muscles can handle 1.5X as much as your supporting muscles then you have to choose to strengthen the supporters, or focus on the go forward ones. Also the reps are kept low (heavy) and can be - because its safe and safe to do a max, where not so much in a squat.
Last edited by Doge; 10-13-14 at 07:27 PM.
10-13-14, 07:15 PM
#138
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I think its a good discussion and I think there are quite a few different schools of thought on the matter. I know a couple coaches that believe all the muscles you need to develop for cycling will be developed on the bike and I've read quite a few write-ups/articles from coaches or physio's that argue for the squat routine. Ultimately, both sets will have hugely successful athletes and total dud athletes. At the end of the day, it comes down to what works for you and what you can accommodate in your schedule. The current program seems to be working for your son, @Doge , so little reason to change it. With that said, probably best to be aware of other schools of thought and potential benefits from those schools of thought.
10-13-14, 08:13 PM
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If your cycling muscles can handle 1.5X as much as your supporting muscles then you have to choose to strengthen the supporters, or focus on the go forward ones. Also the reps are kept low (heavy) and can be - because its safe and safe to do a max, where not so much in a squat.
10-13-14, 08:40 PM
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The Pro tour guys do not all look so balanced, nor do many track sprinters - running and cycling. "Good" is reducing risk of injury and performing better at your sport.
If you believe all muscles and ligaments (I keep mentioning those) can be maximally developed at the same rate (obviously you get closer if everything is done slowly), then none of what I am saying makes sense. If you think areas of the body develop at different rates consider this example.
Example:
Say a normal "balanced" person with little lifting experience can do a squat with say 100# and everything balances, and they look great.
Now they want to bike race and use weights to get stronger and they have a 5 month off season to focus on building mass - where they want it.
Say that person can build the strength to squat 200# through diet and training (a lot being neuromuscular) before they can build the supporting muscles and ligaments to safely stabilize that weight in a cycling width stance...
Should they:
1 Do squats by using lighter weights developing everything in balance and get to that 200# more slowly - likely not in that off season.
2 Use other exercises for core and machines to stabilize weight and develop the primary muscles that would allow them to squat (other than injury risk) 200#+ more quickly. And by the time scenario #1 is at 200# they are at 250# and riding.
Clearly we are using method 2. I wouldn't be surprised if some supporting muscles and ligaments for good squats where not developed. But we have maximized those needed to go forward faster on a bicycle.
If you believe all muscles and ligaments (I keep mentioning those) can be maximally developed at the same rate (obviously you get closer if everything is done slowly), then none of what I am saying makes sense. If you think areas of the body develop at different rates consider this example.
Example:
Say a normal "balanced" person with little lifting experience can do a squat with say 100# and everything balances, and they look great.
Now they want to bike race and use weights to get stronger and they have a 5 month off season to focus on building mass - where they want it.
Say that person can build the strength to squat 200# through diet and training (a lot being neuromuscular) before they can build the supporting muscles and ligaments to safely stabilize that weight in a cycling width stance...
Should they:
1 Do squats by using lighter weights developing everything in balance and get to that 200# more slowly - likely not in that off season.
2 Use other exercises for core and machines to stabilize weight and develop the primary muscles that would allow them to squat (other than injury risk) 200#+ more quickly. And by the time scenario #1 is at 200# they are at 250# and riding.
Clearly we are using method 2. I wouldn't be surprised if some supporting muscles and ligaments for good squats where not developed. But we have maximized those needed to go forward faster on a bicycle.
Last edited by Doge; 10-13-14 at 08:44 PM.
10-13-14, 09:10 PM
#141
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It can be argued that leg press is more dangerous for your knees and low back than a properly executed full squat, so I'm curious exactly what supporting muscles and ligaments you think are being protected by doing leg press instead of squats?
IMHO it's rare for a person's legs to be strong enough to squat a weight that their core can't handle unless the person is cheating. By cheating I mean loading a ton of weight on the bar and then doing extremely shallow partial squats. A properly executed squat doesn't just use the quads, it pretty much all the muscles in the legs and trunk working together. In fact when I do squats for the first time back after taking a break, it's the hamstrings and inner thighs that get hit with DOMS much more than the quads.
Start with a weight that you can squat with strict form and do a linear progression from there (increase weight at each workout), and the strength will develop without creating imbalances. By strict for I mean:
- squat to full depth (crease of hip below top of knee)
- maintain neutral spine
- don't let knees collapse in when you start the drive up from the bottom
IMHO it's rare for a person's legs to be strong enough to squat a weight that their core can't handle unless the person is cheating. By cheating I mean loading a ton of weight on the bar and then doing extremely shallow partial squats. A properly executed squat doesn't just use the quads, it pretty much all the muscles in the legs and trunk working together. In fact when I do squats for the first time back after taking a break, it's the hamstrings and inner thighs that get hit with DOMS much more than the quads.
Start with a weight that you can squat with strict form and do a linear progression from there (increase weight at each workout), and the strength will develop without creating imbalances. By strict for I mean:
- squat to full depth (crease of hip below top of knee)
- maintain neutral spine
- don't let knees collapse in when you start the drive up from the bottom
10-13-14, 09:44 PM
#142
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Doge should just put his kid's trainer in touch with this forum so the trainer can learn about weights.
I love you guys.
"Get a coach get a coach get a coach get a coach. "
"Oh, you have a coach? Your coach is wrong your coach is wrong your coach is wrong!"
Pitchforks all around; let's get official.
I love you guys.
"Get a coach get a coach get a coach get a coach. "
"Oh, you have a coach? Your coach is wrong your coach is wrong your coach is wrong!"
Pitchforks all around; let's get official.
10-13-14, 09:51 PM
#143
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I gotta say, it's been surprisingly civil though. Kudos to the 33 for that. Also, this is the internets, so we're all wrong and right and better.
10-13-14, 10:00 PM
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Welcome to the Internet fudgy. We're always right and you always suck or something like that.
My point was that it's not an all or nothing approach on squats like doge makes it seem but he seems to be content with the approach and there are many ways to skin a bike racer.
My point was that it's not an all or nothing approach on squats like doge makes it seem but he seems to be content with the approach and there are many ways to skin a bike racer.
10-13-14, 10:23 PM
#145
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Welcome to the Internet fudgy. We're always right and you always suck or something like that.
My point was that it's not an all or nothing approach on squats like doge makes it seem but he seems to be content with the approach and there are many ways to skin a bike racer.
My point was that it's not an all or nothing approach on squats like doge makes it seem but he seems to be content with the approach and there are many ways to skin a bike racer.
The bigger mistake here is that anyone is paying for coaching.
everyone gonna get so mad!
10-13-14, 10:46 PM
#146
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I hurt my back just three months ago from lifting, squats and deads were the culprits.
But the real culprit, of course, was myself, in that I did too much to soon. I developed some soft tissue damage in the right-side lower lumbar region, most likely because my tendons and ligaments couldn't hang with the pace that my muscles were growing.
I hadn't lifted regular since college (2010 grad), and boy those newb gains were addicting, esp. from the deads.
I feel that a forced, patient and slow increase in gym load is necessary for many cyclists/athletes like myself who's muscles will respond quickly and nicely to this kind of work.
But the real culprit, of course, was myself, in that I did too much to soon. I developed some soft tissue damage in the right-side lower lumbar region, most likely because my tendons and ligaments couldn't hang with the pace that my muscles were growing.
I hadn't lifted regular since college (2010 grad), and boy those newb gains were addicting, esp. from the deads.
I feel that a forced, patient and slow increase in gym load is necessary for many cyclists/athletes like myself who's muscles will respond quickly and nicely to this kind of work.
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10-13-14, 10:51 PM
#147
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10-13-14, 10:57 PM
#148
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I'm a chronically tight/stiff muscled person with a tendency to overdo it. Typically, I have to spend a few weeks off the bike every year due to some flare up.
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10-13-14, 11:14 PM
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Correct. I think squats are some of the best all around exercises I know of if you don't get injured. Its not all or nothing. Son does not use squats because trainer says not to. I thought his reasons were sound - from a trainer that has people doing squats - all day long.
I'll use pictures cause I think everyone missed the world body building / Mr. Olympia champion thing.
A 70s shot in his late 20s . I promise - he knows how to do a squat.
I'll use pictures cause I think everyone missed the world body building / Mr. Olympia champion thing.
A 70s shot in his late 20s . I promise - he knows how to do a squat.
10-14-14, 04:53 AM
#150
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random thoughts:
I don't know of that bodybuilder guy. He's big though. Fast forward ten years from that photo and it's amazing how much leaner guys became. So, much like every cyclist, he's too fat for the sport.
Whether he went to the Olympia or not, if you're going to incorporate weights, squats make more sense to use in some capacity. Even if it's as a tertiary exercise. The mistake folks make is poor form, not just on squats but on most exercises. It's really easy to get hurt squatting if you think you're stronger than you are. I always advocated for lighter weights and the striving of perfection of form. If you use proper form it's impossible to go too heavy, because obviously you would no longer be using proper form. But hey I got out of all that before I made the mistake of going pro. Throw too much weight on a machine, and throw it around it…yeah it locks you into a range of motion, but start twisting your body and you can get just as hurt.
Even if a guy is super knowledgable that doesn't mean he's infallibly correct, or that there isn't more than one approach. The world isn't going to stop spinning because some guy doesn't advocate an exercise for some other guy.
I know a lot of old time cyclists with training ideas that haven't marched on with time. Just because a guy accomplished something, or used to be a good coach, doesn't mean it's still the case. I'm friends with a rather famous (american famous) coach. He's had his hand in a load of well known cyclists and teams. His ideas though are to my mind pre-modern era. That isn't to say they wouldn't still work, but his system would be heavier on miles and perseverance perhaps than something that would look familiar with modern power based training.
In reading I discover I don't care what any of you do. I don't care if Doge (who probably hasn't done a lick of it) thinks P90X workouts are too hard.
Doge, having a low uscf number, surprises with his willingness to place his son's career in the hand of others. Many parents would muck up the works thinking they knew best.
The whole 'not a lot of pro tour guys' argument is silly. You guys have no flipping idea how any pros really train. That stuff is all super secret and dependent, wait for it, on who a rider is and what they need to work on. If you want to look at Froome and say 'that guy doesn't squat' I'd counter he doesn't lift his grocery bags either (he couldn't). It's not his job, or useful for what he needs to accomplish.
I don't know of that bodybuilder guy. He's big though. Fast forward ten years from that photo and it's amazing how much leaner guys became. So, much like every cyclist, he's too fat for the sport.
Whether he went to the Olympia or not, if you're going to incorporate weights, squats make more sense to use in some capacity. Even if it's as a tertiary exercise. The mistake folks make is poor form, not just on squats but on most exercises. It's really easy to get hurt squatting if you think you're stronger than you are. I always advocated for lighter weights and the striving of perfection of form. If you use proper form it's impossible to go too heavy, because obviously you would no longer be using proper form. But hey I got out of all that before I made the mistake of going pro. Throw too much weight on a machine, and throw it around it…yeah it locks you into a range of motion, but start twisting your body and you can get just as hurt.
Even if a guy is super knowledgable that doesn't mean he's infallibly correct, or that there isn't more than one approach. The world isn't going to stop spinning because some guy doesn't advocate an exercise for some other guy.
I know a lot of old time cyclists with training ideas that haven't marched on with time. Just because a guy accomplished something, or used to be a good coach, doesn't mean it's still the case. I'm friends with a rather famous (american famous) coach. He's had his hand in a load of well known cyclists and teams. His ideas though are to my mind pre-modern era. That isn't to say they wouldn't still work, but his system would be heavier on miles and perseverance perhaps than something that would look familiar with modern power based training.
In reading I discover I don't care what any of you do. I don't care if Doge (who probably hasn't done a lick of it) thinks P90X workouts are too hard.
Doge, having a low uscf number, surprises with his willingness to place his son's career in the hand of others. Many parents would muck up the works thinking they knew best.
The whole 'not a lot of pro tour guys' argument is silly. You guys have no flipping idea how any pros really train. That stuff is all super secret and dependent, wait for it, on who a rider is and what they need to work on. If you want to look at Froome and say 'that guy doesn't squat' I'd counter he doesn't lift his grocery bags either (he couldn't). It's not his job, or useful for what he needs to accomplish.
Last edited by gsteinb; 10-14-14 at 05:26 AM.