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Old 05-14-13, 11:07 AM   #1301
mike868y
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It just seemed as if I noticed that after resting a bit behind the guy and it was my turn to pull, or when I just pulled ahead if he got too tired, I would feel really strong for about a minute or so and then after that not so much.
obviously your 1' power is higher than your 2' power, that doesn't mean anything.
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Old 05-14-13, 11:13 AM   #1302
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obviously your 1' power is higher than your 2' power
Incorrect. It means that it's likely his 5 minute power will be less than his 2 minute power, 10<5, Etc. Though it's hard to tell without testing.
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Old 05-14-13, 11:14 AM   #1303
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obviously your 1' power is higher than your 2' power, that doesn't mean anything.
He's just getting on the front, hammering and then fading instead of holding a consistent pace for the time the he's planning on being there. It also sounds as if we was being a sled-dog for the peloton.
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Old 05-14-13, 11:16 AM   #1304
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Incorrect. It means that it's likely his 5 minute power will be less than his 2 minute power, 10<5, Etc. Though it's hard to tell without testing.
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Old 05-14-13, 11:42 AM   #1305
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Cat 5 - 10(ish... broken camera), 22, 9, 24, 10, 12, 12

Got my 10 now. Is it weird that I'm hesitant to move to 4? (May just be a bleed over from an acquaintance who expressed his hesitation recently.)
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Old 05-14-13, 11:48 AM   #1306
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Cat 5 - 10(ish... broken camera), 22, 9, 24, 10, 12, 12

Got my 10 now. Is it weird that I'm hesitant to move to 4? (May just be a bleed over from an acquaintance who expressed his hesitation recently.)
**** it - apply for your upgrade...
TODAY!
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Old 05-14-13, 12:03 PM   #1307
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my 15" power > than my 5 minute power, i guess that means i'm a sprinter? tia for your thoughts.
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Old 05-14-13, 12:08 PM   #1308
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my 15" power > than my 5 minute power, i guess that means i'm a sprinter? tia for your thoughts.
Stack 12 ducks on a post and call your Volkswagen very much.
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Old 05-14-13, 12:15 PM   #1309
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Stack 12 ducks on a post and call your Volkswagen very much.
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Old 05-14-13, 12:28 PM   #1310
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To paraphrase Cavendish: "**** small wins"
Oh you so modest
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Old 05-14-13, 02:05 PM   #1311
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It just seemed as if I noticed that after resting a bit behind the guy and it was my turn to pull, or when I just pulled ahead if he got too tired, I would feel really strong for about a minute or so and then after that not so much.
Then you are pulling too long on the front.
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Old 05-14-13, 02:53 PM   #1312
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I wasn't pulling too long or a sled-dog, it was otb with an E3.
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Old 05-14-13, 03:52 PM   #1313
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I wasn't pulling too long or a sled-dog, it was otb with an E3.
It sounds like surging for your pull, and he was doing the same. With a steady pace, pull duration may have been fine. One trick I use to prevent surging is to make sure I'm always in the right gear (so I'm pushing ~90-95rpm). When he pulls off, I maintain my normal cadence by feel, and there's no surge. If the other guy is staying up font too long (like you feel the need to come around), tell him you got it and wait for him to pull over and slow down. You do the same: pull over and slow down a bit.

This goes out the window if you're trading pulls at hill/valley transitions.
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Old 05-14-13, 06:44 PM   #1314
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Cat 5 - 10(ish... broken camera), 22, 9, 24, 10, 12, 12

Got my 10 now. Is it weird that I'm hesitant to move to 4? (May just be a bleed over from an acquaintance who expressed his hesitation recently.)
I've been racing collegiate C with a couple Cat 5 races thrown in. I never placed higher than 12th (yea, laugh away, but I was at least in the main field in all of them) but I put in for my 4 upgrade after 9 races (I added an "extra" local training crit) and got approved. Very happy I did, except my first race after the upgrade was in a 3/4 field and I got shelled. I'd honestly rather get blown away and be forced to work my ass off all the time than becoming competitive in the 5 field.
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Old 05-14-13, 06:52 PM   #1315
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i felt like a cat 5 this weekend. Does this mean i can downgrade back to a 5, and not be the slowest person in the rce?
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Old 05-14-13, 08:00 PM   #1316
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It sounds like surging for your pull, and he was doing the same. With a steady pace, pull duration may have been fine. One trick I use to prevent surging is to make sure I'm always in the right gear (so I'm pushing ~90-95rpm). When he pulls off, I maintain my normal cadence by feel, and there's no surge. If the other guy is staying up font too long (like you feel the need to come around), tell him you got it and wait for him to pull over and slow down. You do the same: pull over and slow down a bit.

This goes out the window if you're trading pulls at hill/valley transitions.
I do the same with the cadence thing and the only time I surged was when I would pull ahead of him but then I would pull in front and look back to make sure he was on my wheel, same for the flats, even if I did surge on the flats he was much stronger than me and could easily get on. We worked well together.
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Old 05-14-13, 08:19 PM   #1317
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I do the same with the cadence thing and the only time I surged was when I would pull ahead of him but then I would pull in front and look back to make sure he was on my wheel, same for the flats, even if I did surge on the flats he was much stronger than me and could easily get on. We worked well together.
Listen to WR. If you're surging _at all_ you're doing it wrong. The driver dropping back needs to soft-pedal for a couple pedal strokes and let the rider taking the front do some without changing speeds. Both riders should attempt to maintain the same pace. If you're blowing up at the end of your pull, then you're going too fast or too long. The stronger rider should take longer pulls, not harder/faster ones. The whole thing is about being smooth. No brakes, no accelerations.
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Old 05-15-13, 06:01 AM   #1318
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Ah...Did my first Tuesday night training crit, I needed that!

After this weekend's hell I was beginning to wonder why I even bothered. Last night reminded me why. It's fun to go fast with a great group of people in a safe and predictable environment. I worked on staying shelter in the pack and doing a couple attacks. Took my turns at the front and filtered back for recovery and then moved my way back up to the front. All the stuff I seem to have major issues doing during the weekend O-Cup races.

I'll be going back for sure!

I'm doing the early race right now, but hope that by mid-season I'll be able to at least hang on in the late race.
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Old 05-15-13, 07:49 AM   #1319
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I do the same with the cadence thing and the only time I surged was when I would pull ahead of him but then I would pull in front and look back to make sure he was on my wheel, same for the flats, even if I did surge on the flats he was much stronger than me and could easily get on. We worked well together.
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Listen to WR. If you're surging _at all_ you're doing it wrong. The driver dropping back needs to soft-pedal for a couple pedal strokes and let the rider taking the front do some without changing speeds. Both riders should attempt to maintain the same pace. If you're blowing up at the end of your pull, then you're going too fast or too long. The stronger rider should take longer pulls, not harder/faster ones. The whole thing is about being smooth. No brakes, no accelerations.
Yeah, when you go past someone to take over, they are already going at their limit for the expected effort (likely above where they should be). Now they have to jump faster onto your wheel. Even if you come back to the same pace after that, you've wasted his acceleration energy and your acceleration energy. Much better to let him decelerate himself, recover a tiny bit, then smoothly accelerate onto your wheel.


On climbs, you should talk to each other. If it's really slow going, then there is not much draft benefit, and that needs to be accounted for, so take it a little easier -- the energy is not free.

On descents, focus on shorter and harder pulls. Let the speed come up, but don't sprint into it. I've experimented with passing the lead rider rather than him pulling off when we're over 30-35mph. It seems to work out, as the recovery is so strong and quick. It's pretty easy to gap a bike length, then ease into the slipstream and slingshot around. He'll have to jump a bit to get on, but then it's coasting for the 15-30 second pull, and seems to be worth it. Normally a paceline loses 1.5 meters of course progress when the lead rider pulls over and drops back. On a fast descent, if you can keep everyone healthy, this is a time that you can instead gain 1.5 meters for every pull -- and with more frequent pulls, you're looking at a gain of 6m every minute...

I should probably turn off my brain though.
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Old 05-15-13, 01:53 PM   #1320
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Ah...Did my first Tuesday night training crit, I needed that!

After this weekend's hell I was beginning to wonder why I even bothered. Last night reminded me why. It's fun to go fast with a great group of people in a safe and predictable environment. I worked on staying shelter in the pack and doing a couple attacks. Took my turns at the front and filtered back for recovery and then moved my way back up to the front. All the stuff I seem to have major issues doing during the weekend O-Cup races.

I'll be going back for sure!

I'm doing the early race right now, but hope that by mid-season I'll be able to at least hang on in the late race.
+ 10000, you're not the only one

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Yeah, when you go past someone to take over, they are already going at their limit for the expected effort (likely above where they should be). Now they have to jump faster onto your wheel. Even if you come back to the same pace after that, you've wasted his acceleration energy and your acceleration energy. Much better to let him decelerate himself, recover a tiny bit, then smoothly accelerate onto your wheel.


On climbs, you should talk to each other. If it's really slow going, then there is not much draft benefit, and that needs to be accounted for, so take it a little easier -- the energy is not free.

On descents, focus on shorter and harder pulls. Let the speed come up, but don't sprint into it. I've experimented with passing the lead rider rather than him pulling off when we're over 30-35mph. It seems to work out, as the recovery is so strong and quick. It's pretty easy to gap a bike length, then ease into the slipstream and slingshot around. He'll have to jump a bit to get on, but then it's coasting for the 15-30 second pull, and seems to be worth it. Normally a paceline loses 1.5 meters of course progress when the lead rider pulls over and drops back. On a fast descent, if you can keep everyone healthy, this is a time that you can instead gain 1.5 meters for every pull -- and with more frequent pulls, you're looking at a gain of 6m every minute...

I should probably turn off my brain though.
@ Fatboy to, that does make sense, it just seemed like he was suffering and I seem to always pull ahead. There were some climbs we went over at 30km/h so drafting was part of some of them, true about the rest though. And on the descents I was maxing out cadence and had to rely on the most aero position I could get into (he was a faster descender and had extra gears) which was very tough because my lower back is terrible. It always gives out after an hour on the bike whether it a Sunday cruise, or Tuesday hammer fest.

Last edited by sstang13; 05-15-13 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 05-16-13, 08:36 PM   #1321
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**** it - apply for your upgrade...
TODAY!
Done, my next race day has a 4/5 at 11:00, a 4 at 1:00 and a 3/4 at 3:00. 20 miles each.... I'm thinking of going for all 3.
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Old 05-18-13, 02:01 PM   #1322
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So happy, my first set:

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Old 05-18-13, 02:08 PM   #1323
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nice! Keep up the good work!
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Old 05-18-13, 02:25 PM   #1324
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nice! Keep up the good work!
+1
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Old 05-18-13, 03:33 PM   #1325
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5th out of 11 Cat 5

3 were dropped early. 2 broke away early. They stayed all the way and it was a group of 5 for 3rd place. Dude in front of me crashed out bad with a mile to go and so did another after that. Then it was a group of 3 with a half mile left. Just didn't have the legs and was so exhausted it feels good. <-- Strange. Finished 10 seconds behind 3 and 4.

So out of 2 races both of the time I've been fine till the last half mile. I really must work on my 1 and 2 minute power.

Fun race though!
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