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Old 07-10-13, 01:09 PM   #326
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Post 1 and Post 2 are at odds with each other.
Help a brother out than! I do throw in a can of beets or broccoli every few days but realize my vegetable/fruit intake is subpar at best.


edit: liquids are water and beer on weekend/fridays if not racing.
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Old 07-10-13, 01:21 PM   #327
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You're in the right thread. Read it. There's a lot of good info here. In short, you're way too heavy on carbs in general and grains in particular. You're too low on protein and fat. Get your carbs from green stuff. Get your protein from fish and some chicken. Get plenty of healthy fats, particularly Omega 3's from olive oil, nuts, avocado, fish, coconut oil, etc.

I think a good macro split is probably 40c/30p/30f, but you can work that around what your body seems to need. That's a little on the high side from protein for me, and low on the fat. Rkwaki takes in quite a bit more protein, but often fewer carbs. You have to find what works for you.
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Old 07-10-13, 01:35 PM   #328
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You're in the right thread. Read it. There's a lot of good info here. In short, you're way too heavy on carbs in general and grains in particular. You're too low on protein and fat. Get your carbs from green stuff. Get your protein from fish and some chicken. Get plenty of healthy fats, particularly Omega 3's from olive oil, nuts, avocado, fish, coconut oil, etc.

I think a good macro split is probably 40c/30p/30f, but you can work that around what your body seems to need. That's a little on the high side from protein for me, and low on the fat. Rkwaki takes in quite a bit more protein, but often fewer carbs. You have to find what works for you.
I was thinking that an increase in fat would help appetite. Thanks for the insight and I will have to start digging through this thread. Maybe I will start snacking on nuts/avocado in place of oatmeal!
Thanks
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Old 07-10-13, 02:44 PM   #329
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When I get more time I will respond a little better.
Read up first...
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Old 07-10-13, 03:57 PM   #330
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So re-reading this thread and friel's training bible(nutrition section). I am right at 2.1 lbs/inch which according to friel anyone under 2.1=climber. So, this may be a good time for me to experiment. I have been tossing around a diet change for awhile, knowing its a little jacked up but haven't really committed until now.

I guess part of me just can't envision nuts/salad and tuna for dinner etc. I plan on replacing some oatmeal with tuna and a fish oil. One of my main concerns is getting healthy fat in. I don't mind buying some fish oil and can stomach anything except for a few whey protein companies from back in the day. I will also be getting some whey protein to add to the diet and increase my protein to roughly 160-170 grams a day.


So more greens: lettuce, spinach etc mixed with nuts and a protein source like tuna or chicken.
Salmon when I can afford it and white fish like tilapia,squai(sp). How much white fish do you guys eat in a sitting. I mean I can go through quite a few fillets of white fish without getting full.
I will probably pop some fish pills throughout the day or drink some liquid nastiness with tuna.
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Old 07-11-13, 09:01 AM   #331
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So re-reading this thread and friel's training bible(nutrition section). I am right at 2.1 lbs/inch which according to friel anyone under 2.1=climber. So, this may be a good time for me to experiment. I have been tossing around a diet change for awhile, knowing its a little jacked up but haven't really committed until now.

I guess part of me just can't envision nuts/salad and tuna for dinner etc. I plan on replacing some oatmeal with tuna and a fish oil. One of my main concerns is getting healthy fat in. I don't mind buying some fish oil and can stomach anything except for a few whey protein companies from back in the day. I will also be getting some whey protein to add to the diet and increase my protein to roughly 160-170 grams a day.


So more greens: lettuce, spinach etc mixed with nuts and a protein source like tuna or chicken.
Salmon when I can afford it and white fish like tilapia,squai(sp). How much white fish do you guys eat in a sitting. I mean I can go through quite a few fillets of white fish without getting full.
I will probably pop some fish pills throughout the day or drink some liquid nastiness with tuna.
I haven't really been following this thread. But Peanut Butter is the easiest source of protein and fats for me. Just be careful because its high in calories, which I'm not sure is a big deal to you depending on your training load and other eating habits.

Peanut Butter and milk are a staple of me bulking atm. I am not taking any additional protein supplements, trying to do it all natural. Current have gained 8 pounds in 4 weeks. 2-3 pounds were water weight I put on immediately. Rest is mostly muscle with a little fat. Still at 2.03 lbs/inch even with the weight gain. I was at 1.89 lbs/inch during my peak earlier this season though. Interested to see how much that affects me in races (FTP 4.6 w/kg to 4.3 w/kg on weight alone so far...yikes...). Feel so much better though and starting to not look like a stick.
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Old 07-11-13, 09:04 AM   #332
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I just went to make a tuna salad sammich, only to discover that the tuna salad went bad... more than a few days ago. Erp.
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Old 07-11-13, 09:07 AM   #333
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I haven't really been following this thread. But Peanut Butter is the easiest source of protein and fats for me. Just be careful because its high in calories, which I'm not sure is a big deal to you depending on your training load and other eating habits.

Peanut Butter and milk are a staple of me bulking atm. I am not taking any additional protein supplements, trying to do it all natural. Current have gained 8 pounds in 4 weeks. 2-3 pounds were water weight I put on immediately. Rest is mostly muscle with a little fat. Still at 2.03 lbs/inch even with the weight gain. I was at 1.89 lbs/inch during my peak earlier this season though. Interested to see how much that affects me in races (FTP 4.6 w/kg to 4.3 w/kg on weight alone so far...yikes...). Feel so much better though and starting to not look like a stick.
I'm 3.32/inch
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Old 07-11-13, 09:20 AM   #334
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I haven't really been following this thread. But Peanut Butter is the easiest source of protein and fats for me. Just be careful because its high in calories, which I'm not sure is a big deal to you depending on your training load and other eating habits.

Peanut Butter and milk are a staple of me bulking atm. I am not taking any additional protein supplements, trying to do it all natural. Current have gained 8 pounds in 4 weeks. 2-3 pounds were water weight I put on immediately. Rest is mostly muscle with a little fat. Still at 2.03 lbs/inch even with the weight gain. I was at 1.89 lbs/inch during my peak earlier this season though. Interested to see how much that affects me in races (FTP 4.6 w/kg to 4.3 w/kg on weight alone so far...yikes...). Feel so much better though and starting to not look like a stick.

THanks Creatre! Yea I will be adding more peanut butter. I was just doing chocolate milk post ride but probably will add more. lots of food for thought.
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Old 07-11-13, 09:24 AM   #335
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THanks Creatre! Yea I will be adding more peanut butter. I was just doing chocolate milk post ride but probably will add more. lots of food for thought.
Post ride within 30 minutes shoot for a protein shake (~30-40 grams of protein).

Pre-bedtime - protein shake with a tbsp of peanut butter.
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Old 07-11-13, 10:42 AM   #336
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I am right at 2.1 lbs/inch which according to friel anyone under 2.1=climber.
I can't remember exactly what he says, but I don't think this is a hard and fast rule. 2.1 and under means you could be a climber, but it doesn't mean you are one or even a good one. (I'm about 2.1 lbs/in and blow at climbing)

And on the same token, just because a racer is fat doesn't mean they're a sprinter!! Just ask the guys I beat in the sprints yesterday.

As for the food - what about chicken? I eat a lot more of that than fish, personally. Whatever you do, be sure to vary things so you don't get bored with eating. This hobby of ours isn't worth starving yourself for, or even going on a "diet" per se. Just eat healthy and you'll be ok.
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Old 07-11-13, 11:02 AM   #337
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I can't remember exactly what he says, but I don't think this is a hard and fast rule. 2.1 and under means you could be a climber, but it doesn't mean you are one or even a good one. (I'm about 2.1 lbs/in and blow at climbing)

And on the same token, just because a racer is fat doesn't mean they're a sprinter!! Just ask the guys I beat in the sprints yesterday.

As for the food - what about chicken? I eat a lot more of that than fish, personally. Whatever you do, be sure to vary things so you don't get bored with eating. This hobby of ours isn't worth starving yourself for, or even going on a "diet" per se. Just eat healthy and you'll be ok.
Many, many times I have ridden and when the road turn up guys will think I'm OTB. As I posted before in a ride a while back I came by the 'climbers' on a climb and heard one guy saying "There's no way you can climb like that, you're a sprinter"

Regarding chicken? We mix it up between fish and chicken and a ton of protein powder (I go through 5 pounds every two weeks).
Peanut butter is a great way to slow the digestion of protein (I have a double protein shake and peanut butter before bed, could also use olive oil in my shakes)
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Old 07-11-13, 11:22 AM   #338
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So re-reading this thread and friel's training bible(nutrition section). I am right at 2.1 lbs/inch which according to friel anyone under 2.1=climber. So, this may be a good time for me to experiment. I have been tossing around a diet change for awhile, knowing its a little jacked up but haven't really committed until now.

I guess part of me just can't envision nuts/salad and tuna for dinner etc. I plan on replacing some oatmeal with tuna and a fish oil. One of my main concerns is getting healthy fat in. I don't mind buying some fish oil and can stomach anything except for a few whey protein companies from back in the day. I will also be getting some whey protein to add to the diet and increase my protein to roughly 160-170 grams a day.


So more greens: lettuce, spinach etc mixed with nuts and a protein source like tuna or chicken.
Salmon when I can afford it and white fish like tilapia,squai(sp). How much white fish do you guys eat in a sitting. I mean I can go through quite a few fillets of white fish without getting full.
I will probably pop some fish pills throughout the day or drink some liquid nastiness with tuna.

I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. It's not about trying to buy the stuff that will make you better. It's about changing your eating habits to make yourself more healthy. I have fish oil (Carlson's) that I take every once in a while, but I just stick it in my post-ride shake. It's not an every day thing. I do end up eating a fair bit of salmon and tuna. I like them. White fish is good, but don't feel like you 'have to'. When I eat red meat, I prefer bison (grass fed if possible, but that's $$$).

Americans tend to base each meal around a big chunk of protein. Take tilapia. 5 oz has about 30 grams of protein (plus or minus). That's not too big of a piece of fish. Having said that, 30 or so grams of protein is about all my body will take in efficiently for any given meal. So if I'm eating a pound of tilapia, I'm pretty much wasting the last 10 oz or so. Which isn't to say I don't do that at times, particularly if tacos are involved.

Salad for dinner isn't a bad thing. I like it. Get a _big_ bowl. Throw all sorts of colorful stuff in there (kale, spinach, brussell sprouts, red cabbage, onion, cucumber, bell peppers, tomatos, carrots, grapes, cauliflower, bok choy, radish, mushrooms, cilantro, berries, seeds, nuts, etc.....there are endless combos) . You'll end up with a couple pounds of food. Most of it is water, but regardless, it's a lot of food. You'll be surprise at how long it takes to eat a big salad and how full you'll get.

For the protein side of things, I try to eat protein stacks like cottage cheese or greek yogurt (plain Fage with blueberries, cinnamon, stevia & pepitas is really tasty). Some people can't deal with the dairy, but I seem to be OK with it. I also will grab some jerky here or there. Find things that have good oils and good protein. A can of sardines is a good snack. Ya, they stink a little. You have to do it alone (or be prepared for co-worker complaining). They taste good and they're full of protein and O-3 fats with no carbs.

I do have a scoop of whey protein per day generally. It's either in my morning oatmeal or morning green shake. That's an easy 20+ grams of protein in an otherwise carby meal. If I've had a particularly hard workout/ride, I'll make a shake with a scoop right after as well (as per rkwaki's recommendation).

I have a lot of stir fry. I cook with either olive or coconut oil, and I'm not stingy with either. I call my stir fry, "jail food" because it's just a mix of everything. My wife thinks it looks gross. It tastes pretty freakin' good, though, and I'm not much of a cook. Start with bagged 'stir fry vegetable' packs. Once you figure out what you like, then make your own from fresh veggies. They're way better. I vary between Sweet/Sour, Vindaloo, Chile Verde and other sauces. I will generally throw a can of tuna or salmon (wild planet) in with it.

Some people warn against peanuts because they're legumes and the fat profile of the oil isn't great. I personally like almond butter, but I'm not convinced that nutritionally it's that much different. I would warn against using either specifically for protein. They're both fairly calorie dense and you have to eat a fair bit to get a reasonable amount of protein.

I'm not a 'gluten free' person. I'm not really an 'anything free' person. I have tried to reduce the amount of bread/wheat that I eat. It's not difficult to end up the day with 6-800 calories of bread in your diet. Even if it's whole wheat, that just can't be the right answer.

Beer isn't really all _that_ bad in moderation. It's empty calories, but I don't think it's the devil. Just drink some sort of good microbrew. It's not a nutritional thing, it just makes you a better person. If you want a low calorie beer that's socially acceptable among guys, go for Guinness draught. It's only about 4+% alcohol and one of the lower calorie beers. I'm pretty sure something like MGD 64 or Michelob Ultra can damage your soul (proven in a double blind scientific study).

Read some books like "In Defense of Food" and others. There's a lot of good info out there and it's not hard to find.
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Old 07-11-13, 11:28 AM   #339
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Oh ya, I got a new blender. It's a Kitchenaid 5-speed and completely bad-assed. If you want to pay $500 for a Vitamix, be my guest, but this thing has enough power for anything I need. It took down a complete pitcher full of veggies today in about 10 seconds with no poking/prodding. I don't think it has the raw power of the 'pro' models, but the design of the thing really works well, it's relatively quiet and not some huge thing that takes up 1/2 your counter.
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Old 07-11-13, 01:47 PM   #340
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I can't remember exactly what he says, but I don't think this is a hard and fast rule. 2.1 and under means you could be a climber, but it doesn't mean you are one or even a good one. (I'm about 2.1 lbs/in and blow at climbing)

And on the same token, just because a racer is fat doesn't mean they're a sprinter!! Just ask the guys I beat in the sprints yesterday.

As for the food - what about chicken? I eat a lot more of that than fish, personally. Whatever you do, be sure to vary things so you don't get bored with eating. This hobby of ours isn't worth starving yourself for, or even going on a "diet" per se. Just eat healthy and you'll be ok.

I can attest to being 2.1lbs/inch and sucking at climbing. I do eat a fair amount of chicken and turkey meat that is for sure! Luckily for me, I don't burn out on eating the same thing everyday but variety is important. Thanks!
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I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. It's not about trying to buy the stuff that will make you better. It's about changing your eating habits to make yourself more healthy. I have fish oil (Carlson's) that I take every once in a while, but I just stick it in my post-ride shake. It's not an every day thing. I do end up eating a fair bit of salmon and tuna. I like them. White fish is good, but don't feel like you 'have to'. When I eat red meat, I prefer bison (grass fed if possible, but that's $$$).

Americans tend to base each meal around a big chunk of protein. Take tilapia. 5 oz has about 30 grams of protein (plus or minus). That's not too big of a piece of fish. Having said that, 30 or so grams of protein is about all my body will take in efficiently for any given meal. So if I'm eating a pound of tilapia, I'm pretty much wasting the last 10 oz or so. Which isn't to say I don't do that at times, particularly if tacos are involved.

Salad for dinner isn't a bad thing. I like it. Get a _big_ bowl. Throw all sorts of colorful stuff in there (kale, spinach, brussell sprouts, red cabbage, onion, cucumber, bell peppers, tomatos, carrots, grapes, cauliflower, bok choy, radish, mushrooms, cilantro, berries, seeds, nuts, etc.....there are endless combos) . You'll end up with a couple pounds of food. Most of it is water, but regardless, it's a lot of food. You'll be surprise at how long it takes to eat a big salad and how full you'll get.

For the protein side of things, I try to eat protein stacks like cottage cheese or greek yogurt (plain Fage with blueberries, cinnamon, stevia & pepitas is really tasty). Some people can't deal with the dairy, but I seem to be OK with it. I also will grab some jerky here or there. Find things that have good oils and good protein. A can of sardines is a good snack. Ya, they stink a little. You have to do it alone (or be prepared for co-worker complaining). They taste good and they're full of protein and O-3 fats with no carbs.

I do have a scoop of whey protein per day generally. It's either in my morning oatmeal or morning green shake. That's an easy 20+ grams of protein in an otherwise carby meal. If I've had a particularly hard workout/ride, I'll make a shake with a scoop right after as well (as per rkwaki's recommendation).

I have a lot of stir fry. I cook with either olive or coconut oil, and I'm not stingy with either. I call my stir fry, "jail food" because it's just a mix of everything. My wife thinks it looks gross. It tastes pretty freakin' good, though, and I'm not much of a cook. Start with bagged 'stir fry vegetable' packs. Once you figure out what you like, then make your own from fresh veggies. They're way better. I vary between Sweet/Sour, Vindaloo, Chile Verde and other sauces. I will generally throw a can of tuna or salmon (wild planet) in with it.

Some people warn against peanuts because they're legumes and the fat profile of the oil isn't great. I personally like almond butter, but I'm not convinced that nutritionally it's that much different. I would warn against using either specifically for protein. They're both fairly calorie dense and you have to eat a fair bit to get a reasonable amount of protein.

I'm not a 'gluten free' person. I'm not really an 'anything free' person. I have tried to reduce the amount of bread/wheat that I eat. It's not difficult to end up the day with 6-800 calories of bread in your diet. Even if it's whole wheat, that just can't be the right answer.

Beer isn't really all _that_ bad in moderation. It's empty calories, but I don't think it's the devil. Just drink some sort of good microbrew. It's not a nutritional thing, it just makes you a better person. If you want a low calorie beer that's socially acceptable among guys, go for Guinness draught. It's only about 4+% alcohol and one of the lower calorie beers. I'm pretty sure something like MGD 64 or Michelob Ultra can damage your soul (proven in a double blind scientific study).

Read some books like "In Defense of Food" and others. There's a lot of good info out there and it's not hard to find.

I will hunt that book down, thanks! Lots of real good info hear appreciated! Yes, I am a victim of creating my meals around the "main protein" and often times I just freak out if I can't find a dish or meal that contains a lean protein but I need to get over it. I will be shocked if even a large salad will fill me but I am going to give it a try and I really like the idea of canned tuna or salmon tossed in there. A huge salad will also be easy for me to fit in my jersey pocket for commutes and I can keep olive oil and peanut butter in the office.

Love sardines but the wife and coworkers make it a REAL challenge, i need to figure this one out. Ordered some whey protein and will be cutting back on carbs. I have been snacking on avacado's/tuna today and will have some zone4/5 training tomorrow to see how some higher fat/protein meals tide me over.

Greek yogurt,yes thanks for the reminder!
I homebrew and have several guiness clones that I enjoy.
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Old 07-11-13, 02:10 PM   #341
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I homebrew and have several guiness clones that I enjoy.

Hell, you're 1/2 way there, then.
------------------------------

Also, some sliced boiled eggs on a salad is good for protein.

Give it a few weeks and let us know how it goes.
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Old 07-11-13, 03:04 PM   #342
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I'm 3.32/inch
Kilos or stones?
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Old 07-11-13, 03:09 PM   #343
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Old 07-11-13, 03:28 PM   #344
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Kilos or stones?
I'm not stoned...
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Old 07-11-13, 04:50 PM   #345
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re: diet soda

http://news.msn.com/science-technolo...-gain-not-loss
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Old 07-11-13, 09:07 PM   #346
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Is lbs/inch, weight in pounds divided by height in inches? If so I'm ~2.2/inch. Standing at 6'3" I about as skinny as this --> I . But I'm no climber at 3.7 w/kg.. nor am I a sprinter, or TT'er, or breakaway artist, lol.
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Old 07-11-13, 10:09 PM   #347
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I can attest to being 2.1lbs/inch and sucking at climbing.
**raises hand**. It kinda depends who I'm climbing against, but in general, yep, I suck. Interestingly enough, at <2 lbs/in I wasn't any better. I was skinny, but skinny alone doesn't get you up a hill. That was a good lesson for me.

Incidentally, I did get to my low weight on a carb heavy diet. It can be done, but I was losing muscle and my recovery really suffered. Increasing protein intake and putting on weight has really helped with recovery both from day to day and from effort to effort within a ride.
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Old 07-12-13, 08:06 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
**raises hand**. It kinda depends who I'm climbing against, but in general, yep, I suck. Interestingly enough, at <2 lbs/in I wasn't any better. I was skinny, but skinny alone doesn't get you up a hill. That was a good lesson for me.

Incidentally, I did get to my low weight on a carb heavy diet. It can be done, but I was losing muscle and my recovery really suffered. Increasing protein intake and putting on weight has really helped with recovery both from day to day and from effort to effort within a ride.
How much weight did you gain and did your power change? I'm still kinda worried about losing performance while purposely gaining weight atm. I've heard so many statements like this that weight gained didn't really seem to be a factor or it actually helped, especially when someone was too low.
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Old 07-12-13, 10:30 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
I'm 3.32/inch
That's wild! I'd be 225lbs with that ratio.

I'm also not sure about the 2.1 magic number. At the beginning of last season I was around 2.2-2.3 and climbing very well. 15 months later and I'm down to 1.9-2.0 and my climbing is worse while my tt and break/leadout abilities have drastically improved.
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Old 07-12-13, 10:39 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
How much weight did you gain and did your power change? I'm still kinda worried about losing performance while purposely gaining weight atm. I've heard so many statements like this that weight gained didn't really seem to be a factor or it actually helped, especially when someone was too low.
I went from 154 to 135 from the middle of October to the middle of January. At 135, I had reasonable power 'on paper'. If I went out and did an FTP test, I was at ~4.4 w/kg, which should have made me a pretty strong lower cat climber. The problem was that I had hurt any sort of short time frame work and really hurt recovery. Closing any gap where I had to surge for 30-60 seconds was really hard and once I'd do it, I would take forever to 'bounce back'. After my 'peak' races, I dropped into a serious hole. I would have to really work while putting out endurance or tempo wattage. I was zonked for about 2 months. It was really weird and it worried me.

Since then, I've put on about 10 pounds. I hover between 143-145. My power is a little higher than it was...maybe 5-10 watts, so nothing huge. What is hugely different is my short duration power. Now I can bridge and not kill myself. I can put in a strong 1 minute attack. I can recover after a big effort. I'm also recovering from day to day much better. At times I can do 3 hard days in a row, which was out of the question when lighter.

When putting on the weight, I was protein heavy on my diet particularly because I wanted to gain as much muscle as possible (although gaining fat is part of it). Since then I've come back on the protein a little and really shifted towards a lot of veggies. I do attempt to keep sugars, especially refined sugars, to a minimum. The veggies have increased my carb %, but I'm still getting plenty of protein. I believe that has a lot to do with my better day-to-day recovery as well.

Incidentally, my best time up a local climb was when I was light at 8:17. The other day I rode that climb in 8:18. It wasn't a completely apples-to-apples comparison, but it was close enough to see where I stand. When you couple that climbing with the other positive aspects, this is a much better and more sustainable weight for me.

Oh ya, and being hungry all the time really sucks.
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