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-   -   All About Nutrition (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/870212-all-about-nutrition.html)

sstang13 01-30-13 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 15217052)
I am now retired (again :()
I raced last year at 182 pounds. At that weight I can climb like the wind due solely to my strength/history/base.

Had this year come to fruition I my goal would have solely been crits at a race weight of around 190.

Our team this year is very strong and we do have pure climbers (over 6' tall and sub 160 former pro (BMC) among them) so for me to have focus to be able to support them in their discipline I would have to be 170ish which at this stage would be very difficult.

Though we tease a lot I am not fat :) just big. At 227 pounds today I still maintain vascularity all through my quads, calves, biceps, triceps, traps, delts and lats. Abs will come once I stop putting muscle on.

As for my performance I will relay this to a race weight of 182 pounds. FTP was somewhere north of 400 and though I could climb (I could climb with most but would not have been able to attack a true climber, required too much power) where I really noticed the performance was that my power was relentless. Long climbs that were not super steep (i.e. less than 7%) are a true power climb and the ability to pull or to bridge gaps was great. When I was much lighter climbing was a breeze but my power on the flats would suffer.

If I were to be in the sport serious (i.e. NRC Stage race stuff) I would have to be somewhere around 171.
If it were NCC racing only I would come in around 190.

:eek:. :eek:.......:eek: Are you ******* serious?? :eek:. Impossible.

ericm979 01-30-13 05:54 PM

Sstang- you might look into liquid food. Gels make me sick (due to their osmolality) but some people seem to tolerate them.
You can also mix a super concentrated bottle of something like Hammer Perpetuem. But then you will need more feeds of water bottles.

I try to eat small bites of bar rather than trying to get an entire bar down. You can break it into chunks and put those in your pocket. In a race I eat when the pack's slacked off. If you see a bunch of guys going for their pockets, that's the time to eat. Or attack. :)

sstang13 01-30-13 06:13 PM

I had an orange gell once that I got in a loop bag in a race and it tasted awful! But I could tolerate downing it if needed in a race, and just wash it out with water/gatorade. I don't imagine the pack will slack off in my races, there relatively short 60-80km and people seem to hammer, at least that's what I think due to their average speeds. I would like to try and attack this year, but I really lack the ability to go solo or even with a few riders and feel the pain for even a short time. Like my 2x20s today where I'm not sure if I went to hard at first (no power meter) but I tried to guess what 85% of FTP was, after the first 20" it felt like I just did a FTP test, I was down by almost 10rpm on the same gear and was hurting.

jsutkeepspining 01-30-13 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstang13 (Post 15217676)
First off, great thread! I was actually thinking about asking my coach about nutrition just before you posted this, thanks rkwaki!

I have a question though, I've noticed here, and it's also kind of common sense that everyone is different when it comes to nutrition in all aspects (fluid intake, food intake, when to eat etc.) But as I told you in the training status, I'm awful when it comes to all of the details of eating and drinking!

I'm 6' 2" and about 160-165 lbs (very slim/lanky!), but it always changes (probably water weight, eh? ;)). I usually drink one bottle per hour on a solo ride which is usually around 2 hours. When I go harder it could end up being up to a bottle and a half per hour, but never really more than that. Especially since 2 bottles is all I can carry and don't have anywhere where I ride to fill up. It's also hard to eat one rides though, sometimes it's easy to get in a banana because it's soft because for some reason after a while of the bike, my jaw seems like it locks up (TMJ) so it's hard to eat things like protein bars or any granola bars. And I'm a veryy slow eater, someone told me to just shovel it down once when I was eating a cliff bar as I was falling back on a fast group ride, but with a dry mouth and slow eating it's hard.

If you don't mind taking the time, what liquid/food should I normally intake before/during/after a day/ride?

Thanks a lot.


fatty :P

sstang13 01-30-13 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining (Post 15217818)
fatty :P

My flu is gone. Go to sleep, you need your rest.

jsutkeepspining 01-30-13 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstang13 (Post 15217834)
My flu is gone. Go to sleep, you need your rest.

i've been sleeping on and off all day. I;m ready to get better. I hate having the flu. I get fat because i just eat all day (not the stomach flu, just the body aches and shiz like that).

Jandro 01-30-13 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 15215568)
Oh boy here we go...

Skipping a meal pre-ride is disastrous. Think of it this way:
To move your bike you need, muscle, blood, your heart etc. Muscle is extremely important. You mention having a good dinner the night before, let's say 6pm. Then I am assuming that is it for the night (another critical error). Your body will ingest that food in about 2 hours, shortly after that it starts to go catabolic (it draws on itself for energy) and the easiest place to get it is through the breakdown of muscle (already established that you need this to be fast/strong). So for argument sake your body has gone catabolic at around 9 pm. You then went to sleep and your caloric requirements went down as you were resting (still have some draw). You then wake up and go train (lets say that was at 7 am) and don't really eat much until part way into your ride (lets say 8 am). So basically your muscles have gone without energy supply for almost 12 hours. Now you did mention having a shake ready to go when you return from your ride and that is a great thing as it will help your recovery efforts BUT by not 'feeding' the muscles beforehand that shake may be in vain. Eat a snack before bed (high protein, moderate fat) and have a good breakfast (eggs, egg whites, steel cut oats, banana) and look to see the change.

I don't have much to add (so much good info here already) except to vouch for this. I used to do the same thing: no real breakfast before early morning rides and maybe a bar half-way through. This not as bad when I was commuting to work 2 days/wk (40mi commute), but was noticeably awful when I started upping the milage/intensity around 8-9 months ago. I now always have steel cut oats - I add trail mix type stuff for more flavor/variety -, bananas, and pb&j bagels/english muffins on hand. Sometimes, if it's a super early rollout, I'll prepare as much of it as I can before bed. Huge improvement: less riding fatigue and faster recovery, especially during stints of back-to-back long/hard days.

revchuck 01-30-13 07:29 PM

sstang - Following on with what Eric said about breaking bars into chunks...carefully open the end of a Clif Bar package when you're getting ready for your ride/race, cut the bar into quarters, and stick the pieces back in the package. That way, when you need something to eat, you can reach back there and grab a bite-sized piece. This doesn't work with some other bars due to their packaging. I use the package rather than just the jersey pocket because in Louisiana, with the temperature and the humidity often both in the 90s in the summer, things can get sticky back there. Also, speaking of jersey pockets, you've got three of them; they make good auxiliary bottle cages. ;) If I expect to be out over two hours, a third bottle goes in the center jersey pocket pretty comfortably. I don't ride anywhere where there isn't a convenience store within three hours' ride, but if I had to, I could fit a fourth bottle in another pocket.

Racer Ex 01-30-13 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 15215416)
There are some really knowledgeable guys on the board (picking on you Enthalpic) that have lots to offer.

I guess all those stage race wins were just luck?

Seriously, I'm hurt not to get some love here.

Boo.

Who?

Throwing in a few comments:

Me + ride bike + protein = cramps.

Multiple verifications. This saddens me because I'd like that little bit of statistical advantage. So it goes.

My "in race/pre race" fueling is predicated on the event (and the events to follow if I'm doing multiple races, or what I'm doing the next day for that matter). My training fuel (or lack of) is set up to maximize what the goal is for that session.

I'm not wholly on board with the lean or fast paradigm, though it has its place situationally. Both need to be considered. A lot of classics riders lose weight if they are supporting a GT contender after the classics season is over. It's much more a "horses for courses" question. If I'm doing "X" race, where's the optimum w/kg over (deciding point in the race) duration?

And there can be a benefit to doing "no food" rides, providing you use the right protocol. There have been studies that have shown metabolic efficiency can increase because of that type of ride, and it certainly can be effective if you're trying to lose weight. The nuances and timing have a huge impact on their effectiveness though, and it's a novella's worth of reading to really understand what might be, for some, an effective training strategy. Same with the crossover point between lean/fast. Much like power/aero.

My subliminal installation in all your brains is to think about what you eat and when.

Good thread. I'm enjoying the read.

Carry on.

sstang13 01-30-13 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining (Post 15217839)
i've been sleeping on and off all day. I;m ready to get better. I hate having the flu. I get fat because i just eat all day (not the stomach flu, just the body aches and shiz like that).

Ya I hate it too. I had it since last Saturday, I noticed a huge drop in my overall performance and still havn't seen it come back fully yet, after a 2hr endurance and 2x20, hopefully on thursday though! I just had a chest cold and stuffed nose, still a bit stuffed but I'm almost 100% again.

hammy56 01-30-13 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 15218199)
Me + ride bike + protein = cramps.

+1

sstang13 01-30-13 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revchuck (Post 15218026)
sstang - Following on with what Eric said about breaking bars into chunks...carefully open the end of a Clif Bar package when you're getting ready for your ride/race, cut the bar into quarters, and stick the pieces back in the package. That way, when you need something to eat, you can reach back there and grab a bite-sized piece. This doesn't work with some other bars due to their packaging. I use the package rather than just the jersey pocket because in Louisiana, with the temperature and the humidity often both in the 90s in the summer, things can get sticky back there. Also, speaking of jersey pockets, you've got three of them; they make good auxiliary bottle cages. ;) If I expect to be out over two hours, a third bottle goes in the center jersey pocket pretty comfortably. I don't ride anywhere where there isn't a convenience store within three hours' ride, but if I had to, I could fit a fourth bottle in another pocket.

That's a great idea with the clif bar, i'll try that. What bottle do you put in your pocket though? because I couldn't fit another squeeze bottle in there, maybe a normal plastic water bottle but it doesn't fit in my bottle cages plus it's very uncomfortable. I'm sure when the day comes for a long/hot race, I'll find something in the middle.

dpr8ter 01-30-13 10:04 PM

Hey all,
So I've finally decided to get serious and smart about racing. For the first time ever I have a plan and goals. One of those goals is to lose 50-60 pounds (currently 5'10" and 220lbs.). My biggest obstacle right now is proper nutrition. I'm general manager of a coffee shop, so my hours are pretty much all over the place. I generally work either 7am-2-3pm or 12pm-6-8pm. We are across the street from a college campus, so you can imagine it's insanely busy most of the time. My biggest problem is finding time to eat properly. I know what I need to be eating, but it's rare that I have the 5-10 minutes it takes to make and eat a proper meal. Any ideas on simple, small easy to make ahead meals?

Enthalpic 01-30-13 10:42 PM

[QUOTE=rkwaki;15215568]Oh boy here we go... Skipping a meal pre-ride is disastrous. QUOTE]

Maybe tomorrow I will get around to addressing this statement. While you certainly want to be well nourished during races and hard rides there are some adaptations that can come from catabolic rides during training. The body really doesn't like to starve to death so it produces a bunch of powerful signaling molecules when faced with insufficient calories.

Fat Boy 01-30-13 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 15218199)

Throwing in a few comments:

Me + ride bike + protein = cramps.

Multiple verifications. This saddens me because I'd like that little bit of statistical advantage. So it goes.

This is also a huge deal. You _must_ know your body. What works for me may not work for you or the next guy. There will be all sorts of parallels to draw, but we are all just a tick different. It's an easy thing to overlook.

The Accelerade protein whey/soy concentrate gave me the soupy poopy. The stuff I mix for myself with hydrolyzed whey isolate (in a 6:1 ratio with carbs, which is fairly light) does not. I think because it's relatively easy to digest (due to being hydrolyzed) and in a relatively small total amount.

revchuck 01-31-13 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstang13 (Post 15218250)
What bottle do you put in your pocket though? because I couldn't fit another squeeze bottle in there, maybe a normal plastic water bottle but it doesn't fit in my bottle cages plus it's very uncomfortable. I'm sure when the day comes for a long/hot race, I'll find something in the middle.

I use standard 24 oz. cycling bottles, and they fit fine. Ever see a picture of a domestique when he goes back to the team car for bottles? When I'm riding by myself, I pull the full one out of the jersey and swap it with an empty one from a bottle cage. I'm too clumsy to do that in a paceline, but when riding with a group we usually take a break at around the two bottle point anyway.

kensuf 01-31-13 07:02 AM

The one thing I don't see mentioned is sleep. You need sleep to recover. Period. Turn off the TV, go to bed.

rbart4506 01-31-13 07:04 AM

This is a good read...

I know I need to consume more on the bike when I'm longer training rides. I tend to be a Cliff bar\gel guy right now and rarely carry real food. I've never found anything that works for me that's easy to carry and deal with. When racing at home I'm strictly on a gel diet since may races are usually 90-100min long. I use a gel flask so I can dilute the mixture and also make it much easier to take in. I can take a swing every 15-20mins and not have to deal with the pesky wrapper.

The on bike feeding when racing in the US is a bit more difficult since I usually go down there for stage races and the RR's are long. For those I toss in a Cliff bar, which works for me since getting at it rarely poses a problem because by the time I need it I'm off the back...Going to work on that this season...

A question I do have is nutrition during a rest week..Do you back off or keep eating like normal?

I've started taking in a protein drink every morning when I get to work and cut back on sugar (no soda, fruit drinks) and am already seeing results in loss of belly fat...It's scary that at 138lbs I still have a slightly pudgy mid-section....

MDcatV 01-31-13 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstang13 (Post 15218250)
That's a great idea with the clif bar, i'll try that. What bottle do you put in your pocket though? because I couldn't fit another squeeze bottle in there, maybe a normal plastic water bottle but it doesn't fit in my bottle cages plus it's very uncomfortable. I'm sure when the day comes for a long/hot race, I'll find something in the middle.

practice this stuff. when on a training ride, practice getting a cliff bar or whatever youre eating out of your pocket, opening it, eating it, putting it back in pocket, etc., over and over again until you dont have to prep it before hand. do same with your bottles.

Nate552 01-31-13 08:07 AM

One thing I haven't seen discussed in this thread ( I don't think ) is the amount of carbs to take on during a longer race. Everyone knows to eat carbs during a race, but I was surprised to see how many are needed. In one study the benefits kept climbing as the grams per hour went up from 15 g to 60 g. And 90 g (mixture of Glucose and Fructose ) showed a big improvement. Asker Jeukendrup (Prof of Exercise Metabolism and Academic Director of Human Performance Lab) published a study that said that cab intake accounted for 30% of the variation in the finishing times of the Kona Ironman. The trouble for me is that 90 carbs can = 3-4 Gels an hour.



[QUOTE=Enthalpic;15218587]
Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 15215568)
Oh boy here we go... Skipping a meal pre-ride is disastrous. QUOTE]

Maybe tomorrow I will get around to addressing this statement. While you certainly want to be well nourished during races and hard rides there are some adaptations that can come from catabolic rides during training. The body really doesn't like to starve to death so it produces a bunch of powerful signaling molecules when faced with insufficient calories.

Yep, I sometimes do this one morning during the week, having nothing but a cup of coffee before a shorter training ride. It's something my coach asked me do awhile back. Same guy I mentioned above said this in an interview:

"There is a developing theory that training with low glycogen in your muscles can help your training adaptation. We also conducted studies where we had people train twice a day. In between they would not eat much carbohydrate and therefore they would not replenish their energy stores the second training of the day would therefore be performed in a glycogen depleted state. The athletes who trained with this regimen showed better adaptations in their muscles. We took muscle biopsies and found that various enzymes, in particular those involved in fat metabolism increased in comparison to a group of athletes who did similar training but always in a glycogen loaded state. When we measured performance in these athletes we did not see much but the training program was only short and it is not unthinkable that training like this for a longer period of time would also result in significant performance improvements. I therefore incorporated one of these sessions with low glycogen into my training week."
http://www.srm.de/it/srm-blog/triath...ker-jeukendrup

rkwaki 01-31-13 08:07 AM

[QUOTE=Enthalpic;15218587]
Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 15215568)
Oh boy here we go... Skipping a meal pre-ride is disastrous. QUOTE]

Maybe tomorrow I will get around to addressing this statement. While you certainly want to be well nourished during races and hard rides there are some adaptations that can come from catabolic rides during training. The body really doesn't like to starve to death so it produces a bunch of powerful signaling molecules when faced with insufficient calories.

Agreed. The one thing I have learnt (ed) over the years is that it is much easier to say what I said (about skipping breakfast being disastrous) then going into the adaptations like Ex said as unless you know what you are doing you are bound to fail. Maybe on page 4 we can bring it up. :)

gsteinb 01-31-13 08:08 AM

check: the fat guy who doesn't race is the forum nutrition expert?

rkwaki 01-31-13 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 15218199)
I guess all those stage race wins were just luck?

Seriously, I'm hurt not to get some love here.

Boo.

Who?

Throwing in a few comments:

Me + ride bike + protein = cramps.

Multiple verifications. This saddens me because I'd like that little bit of statistical advantage. So it goes.

My "in race/pre race" fueling is predicated on the event (and the events to follow if I'm doing multiple races, or what I'm doing the next day for that matter). My training fuel (or lack of) is set up to maximize what the goal is for that session.

I'm not wholly on board with the lean or fast paradigm, though it has its place situationally. Both need to be considered. A lot of classics riders lose weight if they are supporting a GT contender after the classics season is over. It's much more a "horses for courses" question. If I'm doing "X" race, where's the optimum w/kg over (deciding point in the race) duration?

And there can be a benefit to doing "no food" rides, providing you use the right protocol. There have been studies that have shown metabolic efficiency can increase because of that type of ride, and it certainly can be effective if you're trying to lose weight. The nuances and timing have a huge impact on their effectiveness though, and it's a novella's worth of reading to really understand what might be, for some, an effective training strategy. Same with the crossover point between lean/fast. Much like power/aero.

My subliminal installation in all your brains is to think about what you eat and when.

Good thread. I'm enjoying the read.

Carry on.

Edited... :) Luv ya!!!

jsutkeepspining 01-31-13 08:10 AM

i likle hammer nutrition bars. that is all for now, please continue on with your regularly scheduled lives.

rkwaki 01-31-13 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 15219332)
check: the fat guy who doesn't race is the forum nutrition expert?

That is correct.
Have to be an expert on something, apparently it isn't women :)

See what happens when the mods are absent?


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