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  1. #1351
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    progress has been made.


    saw 117.5 this morning, fully empty (post poop (tmi, sorry), dehydrated, hungry). i'd like to race at 120, meaning fully loaded (hydrated and fed). guessing i've got another 2 or 3lbs to lose to get to this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  2. #1352
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    My confirmation bias is telling me this analysis is solid (FWIW, I am about 5-6lbs above my weight last season).

    http://www.cxmagazine.com/training-t...on-weight-loss

    Matt Fitzgerald: In my Racing Weight book I talk about the eight percent rule, which is the idea that at no time should you ever weigh more than eight percent more than your ideal racing weight. Now, that’s sort of an average: I surveyed various sports nutritionists and athletes and coaches and came up with that. There are some who think, ‘Oh, you shouldn’t gain any weight,’ but that’s sort of a general rule of thumb that I think serves the purpose of giving people permission to gain a little weight because I think it is unavoidable if you’re not at peak levels of training. You have to expect to gain some weight, but it gives you a way to quantify your limits so you don’t completely let yourself go and it’s also important to keep in mind that that’s eight percent more than your ideal racing weight, not eight percent more than whatever you happen to weigh when your off-season begins.

  3. #1353
    Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż Ygduf's Avatar
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    Maybe just for @rkwaki , but before a long road race, any thoughts regarding taking creatine to increase intra-muscular water retention to build a hydration safety net.

    twitter.com/ygduf
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  4. #1354
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    dunno but if you've got a drug test coming up…

    http://ask.metafilter.com/243145/How...-this-pee-test

  5. #1355
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Maybe just for @rkwaki , but before a long road race, any thoughts regarding taking creatine to increase intra-muscular water retention to build a hydration safety net.
    There are tons of papers on creatine hyperhydration, it works.

  6. #1356
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    dunno but if you've got a drug test coming up…

    http://ask.metafilter.com/243145/How...-this-pee-test
    I had to write a paper on this topic for a special project in university. While the technique won't beat a GC-MS scan it can beat the simple dipstick screen if done correctly.

  7. #1357
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    I over ate last week. Too much cake. I tell people no birthday parties until 2016, so what happens, three surprise parties.
    judging from what you post on here it seems having a powermeter has caused you to focus on ewang numbers without much a focus on developing actual fitness.

  8. #1358
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Dunno if I would use creatine while cycling. I have been on it for a couple months, and if you don't drink enough, you get really dehyrdated. I can see that being a problem at the end of long road races.
    Category 2 | | Velogames BikeForums Leagues: 1st - 2012 Veulta, 1st - 2011 Vuelta, 2nd - 2013 Vuelta, 3rd - 2012 Giro, 4th - 2012 TdF

  9. #1359
    Killing Rabbits
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    Does creatine supplementation hinder exercise heat tolerance or hydration status? A systematic review with meta-analyses. <-- free full text
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19295968


    Putting to rest the myth of creatine supplementation leading to muscle cramps and dehydration.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18184753

  10. #1360
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    My confirmation bias is telling me this analysis is solid (FWIW, I am about 5-6lbs above my weight last season).

    http://www.cxmagazine.com/training-t...on-weight-loss
    If I gained 8% I'd have trouble walking.

    I don't really gain more than 5 pounds.

  11. #1361
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    My confirmation bias is telling me this analysis is solid (FWIW, I am about 5-6lbs above my weight last season).

    http://www.cxmagazine.com/training-t...on-weight-loss
    That's freaking crazy yo. It took me 3 months of "bulking" (eating everything in sight and lots of time in the gym) to put on 8% from my race weight. If anyone is gaining 8% every year, they are going to have problems in the long term.
    Category 2 | | Velogames BikeForums Leagues: 1st - 2012 Veulta, 1st - 2011 Vuelta, 2nd - 2013 Vuelta, 3rd - 2012 Giro, 4th - 2012 TdF

  12. #1362
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    Putting to rest the myth of creatine supplementation leading to muscle cramps and dehydration.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18184753
    I realize that there are now a number of peer reviewed studies showing no relation between cramping and creatine supplementation, but dang, since I have been on creatine cramping seems like a much bigger problem than it has ever been before. Perhaps creatine supplementation is enabling me to load on more TSS, causing more fatigue, thus I am cramping more? I dunno.

    I realize that creatine is not typically recommended for endurance activities like cycling, but a few studies have demonstrated that long term vegetarians and vegans have their cognitive capacity increased by supplementing with creatine, and this in turn might be related to changes in glucose homeostasis. I realize that I am going out on a limb and speculatively interpreting the evidence, but what the heck, doesn't cost me much to experiment with creatine for the first part of the season and see how it goes - could creatine have an ergogenic effect on vegan endurance athletes that does not show up in omnivorous athletes? Perhaps not, but also, perhaps it will help my z7 work? Like I said, I am experimenting at this point, don't really think I have much to lose.

    Oh, and I was vegan from ~1998 to this year, I have reintroduced eggs, but otherwise I remain a vegetarian who avoids dairy.

  13. #1363
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    I realize that there are now a number of peer reviewed studies showing no relation between cramping and creatine supplementation, but dang, since I have been on creatine cramping seems like a much bigger problem than it has ever been before. Perhaps creatine supplementation is enabling me to load on more TSS, causing more fatigue, thus I am cramping more? I dunno.

    I realize that creatine is not typically recommended for endurance activities like cycling, but a few studies have demonstrated that long term vegetarians and vegans have their cognitive capacity increased by supplementing with creatine, and this in turn might be related to changes in glucose homeostasis. I realize that I am going out on a limb and speculatively interpreting the evidence, but what the heck, doesn't cost me much to experiment with creatine for the first part of the season and see how it goes - could creatine have an ergogenic effect on vegan endurance athletes that does not show up in omnivorous athletes? Perhaps not, but also, perhaps it will help my z7 work? Like I said, I am experimenting at this point, don't really think I have much to lose.

    Oh, and I was vegan from ~1998 to this year, I have reintroduced eggs, but otherwise I remain a vegetarian who avoids dairy.
    I thought you said virgin....
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  14. #1364
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    but a few studies have demonstrated that long term vegetarians and vegans have their cognitive capacity increased by supplementing with meat
    fify
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #1365
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    but a few studies have demonstrated that long term vegetarians and vegans have their cognitive capacity increased by supplementing with meat
    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    fify
    crayon%u00252Bhomer.gif

    lol, also unintentional irony points. This is part of what makes these studies so interesting - both supplementing and non-supplementing groups of "meat-eaters" had the same, lower level of cognitive functioning as the non-supplementing vegetarian/vegans. Out of the four groups, only the vegetarians/vegans who supplemented with creatine demonstrated a statistically significant cognitive advantage. Like all interesting scientific findings, it raises all sorts of new questions - like, what would we see if we added a longitudinal element - is this heightened cognitive functioning a temporary phenomenon, or can it be sustained? If it can be sustained, what happens if vegetarian/vegans who are supplementing with creatine begin eating meat, do they lose the cognitive advantage?

  16. #1366
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    I was at 8% above ideal race weight in January. I was fricken' fat and don't want to get there again. ever.

    back on track now, and I've not really dieted or counted calories. I pretty much switched when I ate the majority of my calories, have gone heavier on protein, and lighter on the beers and sweets (but not given up altogether).

    seems to be working and not negatively impacting training at all.

  17. #1367
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    I realize that there are now a number of peer reviewed studies showing no relation between cramping and creatine supplementation, but dang, since I have been on creatine cramping seems like a much bigger problem than it has ever been before. Perhaps creatine supplementation is enabling me to load on more TSS, causing more fatigue, thus I am cramping more? I dunno.

    I realize that creatine is not typically recommended for endurance activities like cycling, but a few studies have demonstrated that long term vegetarians and vegans have their cognitive capacity increased by supplementing with creatine, and this in turn might be related to changes in glucose homeostasis. I realize that I am going out on a limb and speculatively interpreting the evidence, but what the heck, doesn't cost me much to experiment with creatine for the first part of the season and see how it goes - could creatine have an ergogenic effect on vegan endurance athletes that does not show up in omnivorous athletes? Perhaps not, but also, perhaps it will help my z7 work? Like I said, I am experimenting at this point, don't really think I have much to lose.

    Oh, and I was vegan from ~1998 to this year, I have reintroduced eggs, but otherwise I remain a vegetarian who avoids dairy.
    I eat Paleo, and have found that (a) I have no trouble maintaining my racing weight, and (b) despite missing the base season recovering from a crash, my metabolic equivalency point (where I start burning more 'carbs' than 'fat') is surprisingly far up the exertion ladder. Of course I also have excellent coaching, and isolating one variable is difficult at best. When I was using a protein mix for recovery, I'd mix in Creatine (and L-Glutamine). No idea whether it was beneficial or not. Now I grab nuts, or if I'm home, cook up some bacon and eggs.

    "Death by Food Pyramid" is a great read. The author (Denise Minger) systematically rips apart quite a few studies, and teaches you how to do the same - how to be an enlightened consumer of scientific information. She is especially adept at separating correlation from causation, and pointing out the leaps many study authors make in order to support their initial hypotheses. When you can see the same correlations between heart disease in protein heavy diets, carb heavy diets, and the ownership of TV sets and cell phones, you kind of need to test for causation, which requires a controlled study (and usually human Guinea Pigs). I try to look for correlation, a reasonable understanding of what is happening bio-chemically, then ideally a controlled double-blind honest to god experiment. There are very few of those in this area.

    I've been reading a LOT on nutrition, and Minger's book is the best I've found so far at looking at diet without 'religious adherence' to any single approach. Her summary of what is included, and excluded, in the most 'successful' diets around the world down though the ages is truly enlightening. There is most definitely some common ground, even between such apparent divergent approaches as Paleo and Vegetarianism.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  18. #1368
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    This kind of sums up my take on the whole thing:

    http://www.nomeatathlete.com/vegans-and-paleos/

    Though we focus on the differences in our diets, and fight like pissed-off hornets as a result, the healthy versions of both Paleo and vegan diets look an awful lot alike.
    Here are just a few of the things we agree on:

    • Vegetables are good, and organic vegetables are better.
    • Nuts are good.
    • Fruits are good (with some qualifications).
    • Fast food is awful.
    • It isn’t natural or healthy for adult humans to drink milk meant for baby cows.
    • Whole food is crucial; we should eat food as close to its natural state as possible.
    • Processed food is evil, and there’s something very wrong with the system that is foisting it upon us.

    Do you realize what a small minority these shared beliefs put us in?
    Last edited by Wesley36; 03-06-14 at 01:52 PM.

  19. #1369
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    This kind of sums up my take on the whole thing:

    http://www.nomeatathlete.com/vegans-and-paleos/

    Nicely stated. Minger's analysis is pretty similar. Here is the diagram she uses in her book:

    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  20. #1370
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Out of the four groups, only the vegetarians/vegans who supplemented with creatine demonstrated a statistically significant cognitive advantage. Like all interesting scientific findings, it raises all sorts of new questions - like, what would we see if we added a longitudinal element - is this heightened cognitive functioning a temporary phenomenon, or can it be sustained? If it can be sustained, what happens if vegetarian/vegans who are supplementing with creatine begin eating meat, do they lose the cognitive advantage?
    I don't think advantage is the correct term. The vegetarians were the only group who statistically improved but I see no statement that the groups were matched for ability at the beginning or that they were outperforming omnivores afterwards. I think it is more likely that the vegetarians were underperforming at the beginning due to sub-optimal levels which agrees with other research that creatine is more ergogenic in vegetarians than omnivores due to a "catch up" effect. Both groups seem to hit the same saturation point with supplementation.

  21. #1371
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    I was at 8% above ideal race weight in January. I was fricken' fat and don't want to get there again. ever.

    back on track now, and I've not really dieted or counted calories. I pretty much switched when I ate the majority of my calories, have gone heavier on protein, and lighter on the beers and sweets (but not given up altogether).

    seems to be working and not negatively impacting training at all.
    I make this mistake all the time during the off season. Right now i'm back down to race weight, but it's not rare to see me at nearly 165/170 in september after noming everything in sight. Lucky losing weight is still easy for me. I probably should eventually go on some type of regular dietary plan, but right now chipotle and cookies are a lot easier than healthy options.
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
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    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  22. #1372
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    I don't think advantage is the correct term. The vegetarians were the only group who statistically improved but I see no statement that the groups were matched for ability at the beginning or that they were outperforming omnivores afterwards. I think it is more likely that the vegetarians were underperforming at the beginning due to sub-optimal levels which agrees with other research that creatine is more ergogenic in vegetarians than omnivores due to a "catch up" effect. Both groups seem to hit the same saturation point with supplementation.
    Respectfully, I disagree.

    British Journal of Nutrition (2011), 105, 1100–110

    Page 1102:
    Preliminary analysis found that those who were vegetarian as opposed to meat-eaters, and those who subsequently consumed the placebo as opposed to creatine supplement, did not differ on the baseline performance of any test.
    Page 1104:
    The major finding was that after supplementation, the memory of vegetarians was better than that of meat-eaters (Fig. 1). However, at base-line, memory did not differ depending on dietary style, so any hypothesised creatine deficiency in vegetarians did not influence memory, rather it was found that vegetarians were more sensitive to supplementation with creatine."
    Last edited by Wesley36; 03-07-14 at 04:10 AM.

  23. #1373
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    I make this mistake all the time during the off season. Right now i'm back down to race weight, but it's not rare to see me at nearly 165/170 in september after noming everything in sight. Lucky losing weight is still easy for me. I probably should eventually go on some type of regular dietary plan, but right now chipotle and cookies are a lot easier than healthy options.
    wut? chipotle isnt healthy? the hell you say.

  24. #1374
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    I was at 8% above ideal race weight in January. I was fricken' fat and don't want to get there again. ever.

    back on track now, and I've not really dieted or counted calories. I pretty much switched when I ate the majority of my calories, have gone heavier on protein, and lighter on the beers and sweets (but not given up altogether).

    seems to be working and not negatively impacting training at all.
    i'm telling myself i have until the end of the month before i need to clean up my act. Weight has been dropping steadily after i resumed regular training, and i'm barely into base-2 atm. I just need to lighten the eff up for Wintegreen (would be nice, but that important) and Tucker (gunning for a good result here). My weight is right at where my lowest weight was last year, but my waistline tells me i have about a bit more to go...

  25. #1375
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    ^you're quite a bit younger than I am, and if like me, it's easier for you to drop weight when you resume regular training than it is for me. as a 40-something, I have to monitor the food intake more and more carefully every year. the beers are very evil to my waistline.

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