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  1. #151
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    It was either that or a couple big spoons of brown sugar

    I don't eat a lot of processed foods high in sugar...or a lot of processed foods at all for that matter. A teaspoon or so of honey in oatmeal isn't horrible IMO.

  2. #152
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    Here are a few papers showing that fasted training may be more effective. You get greater increases in oxidative enzymes; VO2max rises faster; your recovery drink becomes more restorative; it's better for you if you are getting fatter and yet is not disastrous even if you are chronically under eating. If you consume food during the workout it reduces the workouts effectiveness.
    I figured you'd have the references to back up my post . I read a couple of those papers after I had been doing essentially what they prescribed with good success; I was talking to my coach about that and he sent me the links.

    Like all studies I think it's necessary to evaluate individual response; there is no "one size fits all" strategy.

    From a personal standpoint, one of the indicators regarding my fitness is the duration I can ride at tempo without feeding before I get bonky. Coming off an extended layoff I'll make 35-45 minutes. In race form I can go nearly two hours.

    Prefueling: For longer races I'll fuel 3 hours prior with real food, then supplement during the race. For shorter races I'll top up the glycogen during warmup with 150 or so liquid calories. Training rides (again) will vary according to my scheduled activity and also time of day and prior food.

  3. #153
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Really good stuff here (as usual).

    My Sunday ride is usually about 1.5-2 hours before the kids are awake. About once a month I'll do it fasted. I need to rethink that. Anyway, in the morning without eating anything (I'll have a cup of black tea, nothing it...gotta have my tea) I can only produce maybe SST power. Ya, I can turn the pedals hard for a minute or two if I want to, but I try to do a threshold or above workout, I fail it every time. From the papers you posted, they did endurance training at 70-75% of VO2 max. A quick look at my CP curve shows that 70%-75% of my 5-minute power is exactly in my SST range.

    So is this the type of training that you would recommend fasted?
    I try not to make recommendations, just providing information.

    You are correct that many of the researches use exercise intensities right around fatmax, which is ~ SST. However, several others use sprints or 30s intervals because they really increase AMPk activation which causes a bunch of beneficial adaptations. AMPk is a cellular energy sensor and when it detects low energy stores it really upregulates genes involved in energy production. I can’t find the reference now but one group used 7 x 30s all out in a fasted state and compared it to 3 x20min zone 4 and there was no difference between groups despite the huge difference in training volume.

  4. #154
    Still spinnin'..... Stealthammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    jsut - 1
    rkwaki - 0

    The fish taco comment from the little pervert continues...

    But since we are talking about it I will need to check where our tilapia comes from. Thanks for the info.
    Na, its still:
    jsut - 0
    rkwaki - 1

    I just commented on the fish taco and tilapia to bring up the point about knowing where your fish comes from, and that while tilapia is technically a fish, it does not all have the same nutritional value of other fish like salmon, cod, pollack or catfish due to the methods used in farm-raising them in the different countries.

    Think factory farm-raised or "industrial" vs free-range organic chicken.....



    Ride Safe! ... .....and eat healthy!
    Just your average 'high-functioning' lunatic, capable of passing as 'normal' for short periods of time.....

    “The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.” - Albert Einstein

    “We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak.” - Albert Einstein

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthammer View Post
    Na, its still:
    jsut - 0
    rkwaki - 1

    I just commented on the fish taco and tilapia to bring up the point about knowing where your fish comes from, and that while tilapia is technically a fish, it does not have the same nutritional value of other fish like salmon, cod, pollack or catfish due to the methods used in farm-raising them in the different countries.

    Think factory farm-raised or "industrial" vs free-range organic chicken.....



    Ride Safe! ... .....and eat healthy!
    Farm raised salmon (which is most) 'taint really the same as wild, either.

  6. #156
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    Oh, and some of the honey's fake, too: http://grist.org/food-safety/2011-08...m-china-in-us/

    And olive oil for that matter.

  7. #157
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Farm raised salmon (which is most) 'taint really the same as wild, either.
    Wild Scottish Salmon is delicious
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  8. #158
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    I try to get wild Alaskan salmon. Atlantic farmed stuff is a hell of a lot cheaper...almost 1/2 the price. I wonder what the real nutritional difference is. It's really hard to know.

    I had Sablefish (Black Cod) last night. Pretty damned good stuff. It's a fatty fish, like salmon, that's loaded with Omega-3's.

    I'm not a big fan of tilapia, but I end up buying it. I make all of the meals for our family, and if I make fish for the kids, it has to be pretty mild stuff. They just won't eat the good stuff. If I'm doing fish, I'll make tilapia for them and salmon for my wife and me. It's still a hell of a lot better food than McDonalds or whatever else a lot of kids get fed. Last night was salmon patties for the kids, which they do eat (and like). They won't do fillets, though, and it kills me to throw out a bunch of expensive fish.

  9. #159
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    I try not to make recommendations, just providing information.
    Fair enough. Well, keep it coming.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    For shorter races I'll top up the glycogen during warmup with 150 or so liquid calories.
    Hmmm...150 calories, liquid...a bottle of beer has 150 calories...new race prep?
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  11. #161
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    Wild Alaskan salmon fillets rubbed with some black pepper, lemon and dill cooked on the grill on a cedar plank that was soaked in white wine =

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Fair enough. Well, keep it coming.
    The pros & cons of fed/fasted/in-ride glucose supplementation is a pretty broad topic. Which of these topisc most interest you?

    Carbohydrate effect on the growth hormone response - carbs lower GH output
    Carbohydrate effect on the testosterone response - carbs lower T production
    Carbohydrate effect on the cortisol response - carbs help prevent excess cortisol / adrenal stress
    Carbohydrate effect on the thyroid response - carbs protect thyroid function
    Carbohydrate effect on immune function - carbs protect immune function

  13. #163
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Easy, Enthalpic...I just want 'the answer'!

    In all honesty, though, it's pretty apparent that there are plenty of spices in this particular soup and, as always, we're dealing with a series of compromises. What's the possibility of getting an overview of all of those. Maybe 2-3 papers on each. That should keep me busy for at least a week. There's a lot to digest there (pun completely intended).

  14. #164
    Still spinnin'..... Stealthammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Farm raised salmon (which is most) 'taint really the same as wild, either.
    True, and because farm-raised salmon are generally also fed pellets containing primarily soy beans and corn rather than the krill and algae that wild salmon eat (so they also have relatively small amounts of omega-3 fatty acids and a less beneficial mix of fatty acids as well), they also get chemicals to give their meat the red color that krill normally provides, and they get very high doses of antibiotics (at higher levels than any other livestock by weight). Wild salmon on the other hand is not very difficult to find if you know where to shop, while wild tilapia are virtually none existent outside of Africa.
    Last edited by Stealthammer; 02-03-13 at 02:38 AM.
    Just your average 'high-functioning' lunatic, capable of passing as 'normal' for short periods of time.....

    “The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.” - Albert Einstein

    “We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak.” - Albert Einstein

  15. #165
    Riding the bike I love. sstang13's Avatar
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    Ok so I just tried water+protein powder instead of milk+protein powder...ugh. The test changes a little bit, but I can tolerate that, it's just that the milk makes it thicker and it tastes/feels soo much better! Water seems to 'thin' if you will.

    I think one thing we can all agree on was my dinner tonight.. a big bowl of CHILI! mmm, be jealous

    Ps. Does anyone ever not eat anything after a ride? I had a bowl of yogurt + granola stuff and was full. Maybe it's because I did ride as hard as I should have?
    "You lack motivation because cycling is a stupid sport with no upside that takes way too much time out of your life to be mediocre at." - Racer Ex

  16. #166
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Some protein powders mix better than others, fwiw.

    Also I find that two scoops works better than one (roughly 8 oz of water) as far as thickness goes.
    cat 1.

    blog

  17. #167
    You blink and it's gone. rbart4506's Avatar
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    You also have to watch the ingredients list on some. I was using one that tasted pretty good, but it was laced with sweeteners. The one I'm on now doesn't and didn't taste the best the first couple times I used it, but now it's fine. Coincidentally this one also causes me less gastro issues which is of benefit to those around me at the office
    "On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx

  18. #168
    You blink and it's gone. rbart4506's Avatar
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    Bah...Now you guys got me thinking about dumping my breakfast staple of a whole wheat bagel with PB&J....

    I do add in some Nature's Path oatmeal with flaxseed, then toss in some bran buds (notice a trend here) and dried cranberries...

    I can't see myself making eggs or anything like that during the week, but I could see myself doing the oatmeal for sure. I take in a protein drink at work so that would have my protein needs covered. I personally DO NOT have a lot of weight to lose, maybe 5lbs tops anything more then that and I'm sure I will a diminishing return. One of my biggest issues right now is fitting in a healthy snack in the afternoon when I'm at the office. I find that when 3pm rolls around I'm really starting to feel the hunger pangs. I usually snack on a Cliff bar when driving home in prep for the evenings workout.

    I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've recently cut back on the sugary drinks and I'm noticing a difference in the mid-section...That really surprised me. At home and work it's water only and with dinner I add a splash of cranberry juice to add a bit of flavour...
    "On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx

  19. #169
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    Speaking of protein and snack, it is hard to beat greek yogurt. You can also add granola to greek yogurt if you are not to keen on the taste.

    edit: It would be interesting if anyone has juiced heavily with beet juice prior to racing or similar. Beets are supposed to be extremely high nitrate concentrations and can have positive effects. Andrew Jones’s group at the University of Exeter has studies on the endurance-boosting effects of beet juice, which they previously reported can extend time-to-exhaustion by about 15%.

    here is an abstract, I can dig up the whole journal later.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21471821
    Last edited by thechemist; 02-02-13 at 07:05 AM.

  20. #170
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I am on the side of eating less or nothing before a training session that assumes the session starts early in the morning. If it is later in the day, I eat breakfast. I seem to perform better with less food in my stomach. Notwithstanding that, sessions longer than 2 hours requires food. I like flat bread and I really like the Cliff Shot Bloks.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  21. #171
    coffee-stained punk hammy56's Avatar
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    Ive always had a hard time eating early in the morning...Im just not hungry right when I get up, and would try to force the issue. (conversely, I usually dont get home until after 9pm so thats when I have a late dinner). But don't want to ride on an empty stomach. I eventually found that eating a bowl of cereal worked well for me, I think because its somewhat sweet. One bowl lasts me 2 hours, maybe a little more. If my ride is over 2 hrs I'll add a banana and take a few gels with me.

    as an example- last weekend I had cereal and a banana and did 3 hrs/3800 ft, and was fine.

    post-ride is normally yogurt, 2 hb eggs, and a bagel.

  22. #172
    You blink and it's gone. rbart4506's Avatar
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    I've tried the beet juice and did feel like it gave me a performance boost, but at a price. It started causing a bit of constipation so I stopped. Riding faster is nice, but no poopie is not! Cripes, I seem to talk crap a lot...Don't I
    "On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx

  23. #173
    Riding the bike I love. sstang13's Avatar
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    Fried egg and cheese on an everything bagel as a lot of protein, at least for anything I can find around my house.. and it taste amazing!

    I always have to eat before any ride I do. I tried a 16 km TT one day, and decided to do it when I woke up. Bonked 10 minutes into the TT.. I couldn't even move the pedals.
    "You lack motivation because cycling is a stupid sport with no upside that takes way too much time out of your life to be mediocre at." - Racer Ex

  24. #174
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    i don't "need" to eat for long easy endurance (i.e .6-.66 IF for a 2-3 hours), but i like the feeling of energy i have even if i just nom on a little bit of oatmeal. For hard rides, i need something in my system. THere's no way i can go and do 3 hours with intervals at the end without some oatmeal pre-ride then hammer bars and gu's during the ride. When you burn 3000 calories on a ride eating 500 before/during the ride seems like nothing.
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  25. #175
    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    Oatmeal as soon as I can and 1-2 hrs before a ride. Two bottles with Skratch Exercise Hydration at the suggestion of my coach because of the Sodium Citrate to help avoid leg cramping. If it's a 3+ hr ride I'll bring 1 more Skratch packet for each additional hour and will need a water stop. 1 GU Strawberry/Banana gel per hour.

    So obviously I don't eat enough calories so I end up gorging the following meal which will usually consist of brown rice, chicken, veggies. Regular meals are veggies/meat (the fewer legs the better) and 1/2 the time I'll add 1/2 cup of brown rice. That basically sums it up. Have a great season.

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