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  1. #26
    Senior Member johnybutts's Avatar
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    In today's race I yelled at another rider.

    We were guttered, he rode up from behind me in the wind and acted as if he wanted my spot, but wasn't man enough to take. He kept twitching laterally to move me off. over and over again. but never came over far enough to actually force me out of the way.

    So I told him either to take the spot or go ride somewhere else, but the jerkiness/twitchiness had to stop. He rode on further up and tried it on someone else. Kinda bizarre
    I'm sure when you were getting to the point of blowing nothing was obvious but making the pain stop...I don't know about you but after the fact I always look back at those moments and think 'why didn't I just keep going' but at the time there wasn't enough oxygen on the planet to make me take one more pedal stroke.

  2. #27
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    interesting- so you're saying if you're in a higher cat, its OK?

    and come on you guys, so far you've insulted my intelligence, fitness, my personality and my penis size. what about my ethnic background, sexual orientation, and the lack of morals of my mother?

    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    but honestly if you're uncomfortable overlapping you shouldn't be forcing people to move, especially in a 4 race. you'll just cause crashes. 4's generally dont get how to take wheels, or how to give wheels. it's one thing when rkwaki or racer ex, or me, or g take a wheel against a 1 or a 2, it's a whole different story when a 4 tries to steal a wheel from another 4 by using force. Just move up and ask for a wheel further up in the pack.
    Last edited by uncreative; 03-17-13 at 06:22 PM.

  3. #28
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    Look at it like this: If it is gonna cause a crash because you are trying to jostle someone for a wheel at 20-25+ mph then-No. If they are gonna give you the wheel, then they are gonna give you the wheel. The road is a much less forgiving mistress then dirt you find in a cross race and when someone goes down in a field in a road race, it is never okay. When you get to the higher Cats all it means is that those dudes have already seen all that crap before and it is A: less likely to cause a crash because they are more experienced and B: Much more likely to earn you a quick rebuttal by not only the guy who you are trying to "Move off a wheel" but the rest of the peloton.

    Basically: No it is not okay to do what you did, if you aren't strong enough to get to the front of the field or find someone with some charity, then dont try to get a wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    interesting- so you're saying if you're in a higher cat, its OK?

    and come on you guys, so far you've insulted my intelligence, fitness, my personality and my penis size. what about my ethnic background, sexual orientation, and the lack of morals of my mother?
    last 3 are cut out by the TOS.
    Last edited by dnuzzomueller; 03-17-13 at 06:51 PM.

  4. #29
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    interesting- so you're saying if you're in a higher cat, its OK?

    and come on you guys, so far you've insulted my intelligence, fitness, my personality and my penis size. what about my ethnic background, sexual orientation, and the lack of morals of my mother?

    it's a whole different story when someone is aggresive to someone who knows how to race a bike. a 4 race......yeah you guys still got a ways to go
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  5. #30
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    interesting- so you're saying if you're in a higher cat, its OK?

    and come on you guys, so far you've insulted my intelligence, fitness, my personality and my penis size. what about my ethnic background, sexual orientation, and the lack of morals of my mother?
    This group has some extremely knowledgable, fast, smart, and helpful people. They are also intolerant of newbie-esque questions that a little research, thought, or experience (given your background) would answer. In other words, if you come off like an idiot, you will be treated like one. If you make a concerted attempt to ask an appropriate and intelligent question: it will be answered. When I read your question late last night, my first thought was "blood in the water", and I waited for the sharks to circle.

    do your homework!

    Your question begs the question: is this what people have done to you? Take your wheel by physical force? Why did you think it appropriate?

    I any event, here is another way to get the wheel you want: go to the front and pull. If you are drifting back after working for the pack, people tend to "respect the effort", and let you in.

    Never expect a free ride.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #31
    Senior Member johnybutts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I any event, here is another way to get the wheel you want: go to the front and pull. If you are drifting back after working for the pack, people tend to "respect the effort", and let you in.

    Never expect a free ride.
    I have never "respected" the effort of anyone. It's logistics. If you're falling back no one can move you - you control the direction people go around you.
    I'm sure when you were getting to the point of blowing nothing was obvious but making the pain stop...I don't know about you but after the fact I always look back at those moments and think 'why didn't I just keep going' but at the time there wasn't enough oxygen on the planet to make me take one more pedal stroke.

  7. #32
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    Generally speaking it is not right to use contact to make up for tactical deficiencies.

    If you're next to the rider in question you can move the most protective guy off of a wheel in 10 seconds without contacting them. I don't do it that often because it's sort of a dickish move if there's an alternative. In fact the last time I really fought for a wheel like that was probably 2002? 2003? It's not like I don't fight for position in races. I just don't see the need for taking a wheel, even in really crazy crits. There's almost always a way to do what you want to do without racing "negatively", i.e. taking someone off a wheel.

    The problem is then protecting the wheel because the only way to defend is to ride in such a way that the only way to force you off the wheel is to contact you. Generally speaking it takes a lot of strength (short term power) to hold a wheel because you need to ride in the wind to protect a wheel.

    When I initiate contact with someone else it's inadvertent (today my hand grazed someone's thigh because they moved a bit when the wind hit the field) or it's a friendly thing (I'll give someone a push to help them close a gap).

    Riders will initiate contact with me to try and move me out of the way, to take me out (i.e. try to crash me), or for the same reasons I initiate contact.

    Contact rarely works out well for a rider that initiates it. The riders that don't need to use contact are usually better at contact, usually understand tactics exponentially better than those that rely on contact, and will, in most cases, use the contact against the rider initiating it.

  8. #33
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    interesting- so you're saying if you're in a higher cat, its OK?

    and come on you guys, so far you've insulted my intelligence, fitness, my personality and my penis size. what about my ethnic background, sexual orientation, and the lack of morals of my mother?
    Mine dick comment was a metaphor. You are a beginning rider in the beginners race. If you need a wheel that bad as slow as you're going you need a lot of other things other than advice on bumping people.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 03-17-13 at 06:59 PM.

  9. #34
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    i give my wheel to my team leader, and a selet group of people i like, and know will repay me later, or if its early in a race, but come 5k out you ain't moving me, and you sure as hell aint stopping me! i think it was rkwaki who said he will go through a gap that is just a handlebar width wide coming into a sprint, i started to get more and more like this last year, and plan to keep it up. at the fast levels a bit of aggression is a good thing, in a cat 4 race i see no reason to be knocking people around (the field is weak, the fields are easy to move through, the feild is stupid)
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  10. #35
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    Yeah I picked that up in this thread, and that is exactly what I need to know.


    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    Look at it like this:

    Basically: No it is not okay to do what you did,



    {\
    Last edited by uncreative; 03-17-13 at 07:00 PM. Reason: fix quote

  11. #36
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    my teammate behind actually gave me a hard time for not getting the guy off the wheel.
    facepalm.jpg

  12. #37
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    and come on you guys, so far you've insulted my intelligence, fitness, my personality and my penis size. what about my ethnic background, sexual orientation, and the lack of morals of my mother?
    As far as I know you can't change your ethnic background, your sexual orientation (P&R), or how your momma acts.

    Riding like a dope is fully in your control though.

  13. #38
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    I think the OP brought up a fair topic. I too felt he was going to get chewed up by asking it, but hey, he did bring up some points that are rarely talked about - civilly, anyway (yes, the girls yell at each other too, believe me). Pack dynamics, "peloton etiquette", what have you. I've found the responses informative as well as, umm, entertaining.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  14. #39
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Pointing out that those of us in C4 have a lot of other things to worry about is one thing, but saying the pack is slow is ludicrous. It may be slow to a C2, but it isn't slow to another C4 at the same point in his development.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #40
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Pointing out that those of us in C4 have a lot of other things to worry about is one thing, but saying the pack is slow is ludicrous. It may be slow to a C2, but it isn't slow to another C4 at the same point in his development.
    20 MPH might be relatively slow, but when you hit the pavement at 20 MPH, it ain't slow enough.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  16. #41
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    what i mean is that it's a lot easier to just move up one spot then to waste all that time and effort trying to steal a wheel
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  17. #42
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    I think the OP brought up a fair topic. I too felt he was going to get chewed up by asking it, but hey, he did bring up some points that are rarely talked about - civilly, anyway (yes, the girls yell at each other too, believe me). Pack dynamics, "peloton etiquette", what have you. I've found the responses informative as well as, umm, entertaining.
    How

    pause

    sigh

    How possibly is 'I put my elbow into a guy to move him, but he elbowed me back...dear abbey, what should I do' a fair topic?

  18. #43
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    How

    pause

    sigh

    How possibly is 'I put my elbow into a guy to move him, but he elbowed me back...dear abbey, what should I do' a fair topic?
    Well, why isn't it? The dumb question, IMHO, is the one someone didn't ask.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  19. #44
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    it was a bad question, a better stated question would be something like this:


    Hey guys i've been racing for a bit, and i've always wondered how you are suppost to steal a wheel. In most circumstances you just need to place yourself in close enough proximity, and someone will offer you the wheel, but the other day in my race i was trying to slip into the pace line and this one guy just stood his ground *do not mention how he elbows, pushed, and was generally just stupid*. Got any tips?

    Answer: find a new wheel

    even then it's still a stupid question to ask.
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  20. #45
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Let me put it this way. The question was asked, I read it and thought "oh s**t"...but, wait. Let's see what people say. Maybe something valuable, other than the expected "you're an idiot, why would you do that, why would ask that, yada, yada" would come out. And it did. CDM had some good points, for one. I'm enjoying reading this thread, for another. If it's a truly stupid question, don't bother answering it. Right?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  21. #46
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Because the entire set up defies any sort of common sense. How did some cat 4 come to the conclusion that physical contact is acceptable? That physically fighting for a wheel is an acceptable way to prepare for a sprint on the last lap? That (even if one and two) it's smart to pick a fight with someone significantly larger than him? It's not so much a question but whipping ones fallacies out for all to see. It's TMI. And then the trotted out justification is 'my other cat 4 teammate gave me crap for not taking the guy off the wheel.'

    Sidebar: while this circle jerk was taking place did anyone involved, or who this action was purportedly going to benefit, actually win a bike race?

    The answer is: do not put your elbow into some guy because you want his wheel. Get stronger so you can move up in the wind and slot in where you want when a gap opens. Improve your tactics (they clearly suck) so you're not dicking around in the wind fighting for a wheel (with a guy who probably could have throttled you in the parking lot) on the last lap.

  22. #47
    Senior Member johnybutts's Avatar
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    Dumb or not, it's been sorted, lets stop kicking dead horses.
    I'm sure when you were getting to the point of blowing nothing was obvious but making the pain stop...I don't know about you but after the fact I always look back at those moments and think 'why didn't I just keep going' but at the time there wasn't enough oxygen on the planet to make me take one more pedal stroke.

  23. #48
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncreative View Post
    I put my elbow into him a little bit, ?

    Simply Not Done, Old Boy.

    The other fellows are in a race are your comrades in sport and are due sportsmanlike conduct.
    You have read the USCF rules 'eh?
    If one had taken riders down w/ such ill mannered behavior in my day it would be not be tolerated.

    Have you tried taking your pull in a paceline?
    Amazing how one finds one's self at the front and elsewhere with a bit of effort at pedaling instead.
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

  24. #49
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Because the entire set up defies any sort of common sense. How did some cat 4 come to the conclusion that physical contact is acceptable?
    Yes, it does. Who knows, but he's been informed. For me, it was fun reading. For everyone else, not so much. Oh, well...
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  25. #50
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    For someone like me, who enjoys shark week, it was definitely fun.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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