Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 3 of 15 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 356
  1. #51
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Central Coast CA
    My Bikes
    2011 Prius Three, Cannondale CAAD 10.3, Felt B16
    Posts
    4,105
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    For someone like me, who enjoys shark week, it was definitely fun.
    Is that on again?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  2. #52
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Let me check.
    My Bikes
    Of course.
    Posts
    11,195
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Pointing out that those of us in C4 have a lot of other things to worry about is one thing, but saying the pack is slow is ludicrous. It may be slow to a C2, but it isn't slow to another C4 at the same point in his development.
    Frame of reference...I've seen Cat 4 packs slow to 13 MPH. The problem is that people are afraid to take advantage of the yo-yo because they've been told to:

    Never.

    Ever.

    EVAH.

    Be on the front.

    Suffice to say that moving up and taking wheels is much more about technique than brute force.

  3. #53
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,040
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ...I always miss the good threads...
    "have fun and be kind"
    - an internet post

  4. #54
    **** that mattm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CALI
    Posts
    11,023
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    Yes, it does. Who knows, but he's been informed. For me, it was fun reading. For everyone else, not so much. Oh, well...
    I agree with you - no matter how the question was posed, contact in bike racing a worthwhile topic of discussion.

  5. #55
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    My Bikes
    Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
    Posts
    5,455
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    guess that also makes you an ignorant idiot.
    You have no idea whether she is, or isn't, Botto. The best you can do, and all you SHOULD do, is evaluate her posts. Attacking the poster is inappropriate, offensive, and violates forum rules. Back off.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #56
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Murrieta, CA
    Posts
    1,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Was reviewing footage from my race today right after catching up on this thread. This just made me laugh for a few reasons...


  7. #57
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    My Bikes
    Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
    Posts
    5,455
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There was a shoving match of a different sort in my masters CR today. Guy was moving around a lot, and another guy put his hand gently on his hip to keep him from moving into him. The guy who was moving around took exception, words were exchanged, then elbows, then shoulders.. one of them shoved over the yellow line. Moto ref came up and it quieted down.

  8. #58
    Riding the bike I love. sstang13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Guelph Ontario, eh?
    My Bikes
    Marinano Delta
    Posts
    1,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The question may not have been worded the best, and what he did is definitely not something you want to do, but, I'm sure many of us here have watched pro races as we grew up and/or heard about the pros shoving a bit with their elbows in the pack, maybe I'm wrong but I heard that stuff and even saw it in pro races. So maybe the OP is just unsure of whats right and wrong in the sense of how far to go when 'fighting for a wheel'. The video is a perfect example, a LITTLE bit of elbow contact is fine because its just the adrenaline of racing and being aggressive and what not, but then the guy takes it too far when it starts to become a little to aggressive so the other backed off to avoid any trouble, than karma set in and a wheel opened right infrint of him. This thread could've been ended with a single post. I enjoyed it though

    Ps. We all have to learn somehow and sometime. I was an idiot when I first joined this forum (just go look at my posts/threads) and I can admit it, but I learned a lot here and now I can safely say that I am a much more knowledgable rider/racer than I used to be.
    Last edited by sstang13; 03-17-13 at 09:31 PM.
    "You lack motivation because cycling is a stupid sport with no upside that takes way too much time out of your life to be mediocre at." - Racer Ex

  9. #59
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    3,059
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think the OP gets the idea that physical contact, such as he described, is not OK. Do not resort to personal attacks.
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ffld Cnty Connecticut
    My Bikes
    Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
    Posts
    15,267
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    The topic of contact is valid. I think we've made it clear that the examples given in post #1 are to be avoided.
    Last edited by Homebrew01; 03-18-13 at 05:06 AM.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  11. #61
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,219
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    this forum takes a tough love approach

  12. #62
    Annoyed. Andy Somnifac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    935
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Pointing out that those of us in C4 have a lot of other things to worry about is one thing, but saying the pack is slow is ludicrous. It may be slow to a C2, but it isn't slow to another C4 at the same point in his development.
    I'm with you. The 4 and 3/4 races haven't exactly been slow, when viewed from the development of a 4. I upgraded towards the end of last year and only have 7-8 non cat5 races under my belt at this point, but this year's races have certainly "felt fast." Sitting in the field in a practice crit with an average a little under 26mpg "feels fast." I know, invoking the average speed monster, but for someone who still has plenty to learn (i.e. me) it can certainly be an eye opening experience.
    Meh.

  13. #63
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    11,472
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I can't believe I missed this thread. Enough of the static, back to the topic. I'm all for tough love, but I'd rather show a newbie the right way than to have them continue to endanger the field by doing things the wrong way.

    We do a lot of bumping work in the Cat5 clinics, repeating the following phrase before every session: INTENTIONAL CONTACT IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR POOR RACING TACTICS. It's the bully's way out, and it will catch up to you. Try that sh*t in the upper categories and we will chew you up and spit you out. No mercy. What goes around comes around. Reputations are made and tend to last a long time. How you race defines you.

    It's funny, I usually have these kind of encounters when racing P/1/2/3 that have a lot of Juniors and collegiate racers. Good, solid, capable riders, but they don't understand that there is absolutely no need to defend your wheel 10 laps into a 50 lap race like it's the last lap. It breeds this kind of unnecessary escalation. I'll just move on to the next wheel.

    To understand how to take a wheel, you need to understand how to defend it. Stay close to the rider in front of you. If you sense that a rider is moving up along side of you, drift a little bit over in his direction. We're talking 6" or less. Just enough to make it harder for him to shoulder into you. Most will move on or drop back. So how do you take a wheel from someone using that tactic? Stand your ground. Flow with the field. As soon as the rider drifts off the wheel away from you, drift over to the wheel. It's all about moving with the currents, not forcing things.

    This is all fine and good for most of the race, but the OP was talking about the final laps. That is a completely different thing altogether. Intentional contact is more common at the end of a race, but there's a right way and wrong way to deal with it. I'm a small guy and I get bumped around a lot leading up to the sprint. Most of the time it's just because guys are getting wide, standing their ground, and watching for the holes. No problem. Just stand your ground. By no means should anyone be pushing, shoving, or leaning unless it's to keep themselves upright in a tight final turn. What you need to do instead is burn some energy. What Ex says is so true. Never, ever on the front is not the same thing as save everything for my world class sprint. You have to be willing and able to burn power to keep yourself at the front in order to be able to sprint through it. Patience is key. The holes will open up as riders start sprinting. You have to be ready to shoot those holes even if it's not at your optimal sprint distance. It's all about opportunity, and definitely has nothing to do with contact.

  14. #64
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,219
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    As a sidebar thread hijack there are some race skills I wish I worked on over the past winter to help my sprint set up and sprinting position. While I'm not sure the added fatigue would be a good idea at this point of the year does it seem I'd be better off studying Thai boxing or mixed martial arts?

  15. #65
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,219
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

  16. #66
    Senior Member robabeatle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    space
    My Bikes
    Cannondale Supersix, Ultegra, Psimet wheels. CAAD7, Ultegra, wheels
    Posts
    1,322
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Can I interrupt this to ask another newb etiquette question?

    At the end of the Circuit Race yesterday with several hundred meters to go, I was in 5th position or so. The guy on the front starts to swerve to the left then to the right, across the whole lane. The sprint had not started yet but we were just about ready to go. It didnít feel overly dangerous but if someone had jumped it might not have ended well. Is this cool?

  17. #67
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Central Coast CA
    My Bikes
    2011 Prius Three, Cannondale CAAD 10.3, Felt B16
    Posts
    4,105
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    You have no idea whether she is, or isn't, Botto. The best you can do, and all you SHOULD do, is evaluate her posts. Attacking the poster is inappropriate, offensive, and violates forum rules. Back off.
    AzT, thank you. I know a gentleman when I see one!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  18. #68
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,219
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
    Can I interrupt this to ask another newb etiquette question?

    At the end of the Circuit Race yesterday with several hundred meters to go, I was in 5th position or so. The guy on the front starts to swerve to the left then to the right, across the whole lane. The sprint had not started yet but we were just about ready to go. It didn’t feel overly dangerous but if someone had jumped it might not have ended well. Is this cool?
    Not really, no. He hung himself out in the wind and was trying to force someone around him. A guy did that to me in a break a couple of years ago and it caught me off guard and he took me down. I didn't crash but I came out of the pedal, broke a cleat, and spiked my HR. I got back on, but my sprint was over.

  19. #69
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    11,472
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The sprint is usually defined at 200m out but that is not a hard and fast rule. One must hold their line in the sprint. Intentionally impeding others by riding off of your line is not allowed. It does sound like this guy was trying to shake the riders behind him. I will do that when attacking but never in a sprint. It's not only dangerous is is a waste of energy.

  20. #70
    Senior Member goose70's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
    My Bikes
    '12 Guru Flite; '10 CAAD9
    Posts
    336
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonelmom View Post
    why in the heck t would anyone think this is part of racing...

    Have you ever been to the 41?

    In one of my 5's races last year, two guys got into an elbow fencing duel that lasted about a half-mile. Neither was able to land a blow, but they still managed to come close to nulifying themselves and most folks behind them. Fun times.

  21. #71
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    getting photographed by rockets...
    Posts
    8,133
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well though many of you may find this hard to believe I have had a run in, or two, in my day.
    From what I have read this kinda sounds like inexperienced racers trying to play the tactics of pro. Guys see them do it and think it is part of racing.

    My last run in was in a masters crit. 4 laps to go sitting on a former World Champ's wheel (track rider and great sprinter) probably 5 guys back, the perfect spot. Another rider (1, track rider, Belgian coached) comes along side to fight for the wheel as it is the perfect spot in this crit with that kind of distance. First came the comments:
    Him: Thats my wheel, get off
    Me: F@ck you
    Him: yada yada yada
    Me: Get the f@ck outta here
    Remember this is at about 30 miles an hour

    Next he came into me with the elbows but rather elbow to elbow it was his elbow to my ribcage many times. Naturally based on our experience there was no give by either guy. Now this is the difference, the elbows and such at that level (both experience and category) is alright, I have done it lots but where I got pissed (many of you have heard this story already) is when he came into my wheel on a corner and took away my line forcing me into a sidewalk, I didn't go down but flatted and free laps were done. Yes I absolutely lost it with the ref and he was also pulled from the race and thank goodness I had as much respect for the official as I did or I would have hit him.

    Accidental contact in racing at any level is inevitable, intentional contact at higher levels is often necessary but intentional contact with the intent to take someone out in not acceptable.

    I might joke around a lot but I have never gone after someone who didn't deserve/instigate it.

    How do you get someone off your wheel? Learn pack strategy, train hard, race smart.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  22. #72
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    6,292
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    i think this is a reasonable question that the orig poster should have asked at least 10 races ago. people talk about contact, leaning, moving people off wheels, taking wheels, etc. all the time and should learn what is appropriate and what isnt. best way to learn is to ask.

    first of all, to reiterate to the original poster, your actions as you describe them were wrong on nearly every level. you endangered yourself, the guy you were banging into, and everyone behind you. uncalled for and uncool. were i the guy you were whacking into, i would have given you the damned wheel then abused you in the sprint.

    you need to focus on learning how to occupy space. CDR has written volumes on it with his front wheel sphere or whatever he calls it on his blog - find his post, click on it, and read.

    in my experience, you need to setup on the wheel you want several laps or several K in advance of when you really need it. if you dont get it, take one nearby and work your way up. i've found the most successful way to get a wheel is to accelerate alongside the racer you're after, stay there with your front wheel about level with the pedal or mid bike of the wheel you're after, then when there's a crack you drift into the position and accelerate again to maintain the wheel. the opportunity to move in is anything where your handlebars are in front of whomver is occupying the space you want, and their front wheel is on the opposite side of the rear wheel of the rider you want to tuck in behind. I dont know if that's described very well, but it's the approach i take. if you're in the last 500M or last lap of a crit type race, you waited too long and have no business doing anything but slotting in or finding an open space and taking your chances.

    i'm not a very big guy, but i dont really mind contact. i've been elbowed, head butted, armhooked, hip checked, etc. and honestly, if someone is doing that ****, i'll back off and come around you. BUT, if i'm on the wheel of my leadout (i.e. team mate), i'll lean back.

    Something to keep in mind, the racing community isnt that big, pull BS stuff and all of a sudden when you find your self dangling in the wind? it's tougher to get back into the draft, find yourself on the inside of a tight line? spaces dont open up. find yourself off the front? you get chased or people wont work with you. etc.

  23. #73
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,159
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    Was reviewing footage from my race today right after catching up on this thread. This just made me laugh for a few reasons...

    The guy in the red helmet is a total nimrod. Clueless, contact for no reason, rides like a moron, he's going to crash hard one day if he keeps that crap up.

  24. #74
    . botto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    40,335
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    The guy in the red helmet is a total nimrod. Clueless, contact for no reason, rides like a moron, he's going to crash hard one day if he keeps that crap up.
    careful. name calling is a no no in the 33.

  25. #75
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    877
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    If you have the legs to sit out in the wind, just keep moving up until you find a spot to get in to.

    Doing **** like that in the 4's is a great way to cause crashes btw.

    I'm going with this. I will save the rest of my rant I had planned...the TS probably knows what it was going to say anyway.
    HTFU

Page 3 of 15 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •