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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    ^saw that. Nima. he's really, really, really fast.
    For real?

    He probably is when he's upright. He didn't need to hit the deck though. I don't know him or anything about him except for a clip posted to YouTube showing him making an error. I didn't even know if that was really a name.

    I hate avoidable crashes. I watch stuff like that and think that it didn't need to happen.

  2. #127
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    I'm not sure what actually happened.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    For real?

    He probably is when he's upright. He didn't need to hit the deck though. I don't know him or anything about him except for a clip posted to YouTube showing him making an error. I didn't even know if that was really a name.

    I hate avoidable crashes. I watch stuff like that and think that it didn't need to happen.
    yep, real fast. he's a local cat 1 mostly masters crit racer. multiple district championships. he was in olympics in 1992 on the Iranian cycling team.

    like most crashes, that one looked to be totally avoidable. looks like a moment of not paying full attention to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank0604 View Post
    I'm not sure what actually happened.
    word on the street is that the puddle you see in the video was a big pothole filled with water.

  4. #129
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    I think it's generally kinda hard to ascertain what really happened there from a 24 second clip. But for sure I'm no less stable on the hoods than in the drops. Judging by the way his body pitches forward I'm not sure why anyone would think it would have been different in the drops.

  5. #130
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Look closely at around 0:08. He is on the hoods and hits a small hole. He pitches forward as his right hand comes off of the hoods. That and the water take him down. I would think that if he were in the drops his hand would not have come off of the bars, but who knows. It's not as if he was racing, this was a training ride.
    Last edited by shovelhd; 03-20-13 at 05:43 AM. Reason: typo Gary was right

  6. #131
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    You mean he's on the hoods at :08?

    Experience tells me there's no stability difference, and I don't get any lower in the hoods than the drops. I can touch my chin to the stem on the hoods. For me it's 'sprint on,' 'sprint off.'

  7. #132
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Everybody's different. I have a lot more control in the drops than the hoods, but I am bigger than you, which isn't saying much.

  8. #133
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    His right hand bounces off the bar - it slides off forward of the brake lever. Once he loses his bar that's it. Watch it in 1080 - I couldn't tell in my default 320 or whatever it goes to on my connection speed. Looks like a water filled pothole based on the water color. On the drops the same action would have forced his hand further into the bar, it would have been hard for his hand to slide forward off the bar. If nothing else if he'd been on the drops he'd have had a chance to recover. One handed he had no chance.

    I've seen riders lose the hoods like this. In the drops it virtually never happens except in reverse (throw the bike in the sprint and literally throw the bike out of hand). I've hit potholes so hard I double flatted both wheels (45 mph drafting a truck hit a sunken manhole cover, another time by your neck of the woods even in NY/NJ line area similar speed identical result except this time it was a potholed bridge). I've moved bars. I've ended up on the front wheel. But if my hands were on the bars I had a chance to recover. I can't remember one time I crashed after hitting something hard while on the drops except ice and it's been a while since I've regularly ridden on flatter roads anything but the drops and the hoods.

    Although it's a very low chance stuff like this happens this is why I advocate being in the drops by default, especially in corners and on descents. Imagine if it was a corner in a tight field? It would have been worse. As it is to me it seems like a waste to fall like that.

    It's not that people are less comfortable on the hoods - in fact I think people are way more comfortable cruising along on the hoods and that's the problem. It's not the best place to hold the bars when it comes to control. In a car it would be similar to driving with one foot up on the car seat. When I drove around the country I would "stretch" my legs by folding one leg up and putting it foot flat on the driver's seat. I'd alternate legs. I knew I had much less control over the car - heck if I was pushing the gas pedal with my left food that left nothing for the brake or clutch. I took calculated risks. No traffic, not too much wind, can see the road, etc. Driving like that is like riding on the tops.

    Being on the hoods is different because you can turn and brake to a limited extent. The problem is that it's very easy to slip your hands over the top of the lever.

    Having just gotten the new Campy levers it's possible that those levers would have been better (than SRAM, the older Campy levers, or Shimano). The really old gargoyle Mavic levers would have been okay too for preventing the hand-over-the-lever move, but both those put a lot of leverage on the bars. There's a possibility that the bars will move if you were holding the hoods on a significant impact, tilting forward and dumping the hands off the tops of the hoods anyway.

    When I think about all this stuff it only makes sense to be in the drops when you don't know everything that's in front of you. On a solo ride, on roads you ride daily, no traffic, do whatever. In a group, even on roads you know, drops. Any road you don't know, drops. Except climbing then ergonomics dictates holding the hoods or the tops.

    If it's a fast climb I tend to favor the tops. On training rides when I think it's safe I consciously use the tops instead of the hoods. If I think it's safe enough to ride the hoods then it's definitely safe enough to ride the tops. If I think the tops aren't safe then I'm on the drops. There is false security in being able to brake from the hoods so I ignore that factor - I certainly can't brake as well from the hoods as from the drops, not if you throw in other situations (like hitting a pothole at 45 mph). Even the local Junior cross champion couldn't stay upright from the hoods - he fell when the guy in front of him fell (early in a training race, very easy pace 23-24 mph on a flat road). In a more intense situation (higher speed ~30 mph, much harder turn, last turn of race) when the guy in front of me slid out (holding the hoods btw) I not only didn't hit the deck but I also got around him and placed in the sprint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Experience tells me there's no stability difference, and I don't get any lower in the hoods than the drops.
    True.

    It's that it's easier for your hands to come off the bars when holding the hoods. It's much more difficult for your hands to come off the bars from the drops. I'm saying that your hands stay on the bars. Once you lose grip of one side of the bar it'll be hard to stay upright. This is why the drops should always be the default "something might happen" hand position.

  10. #135
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    come on cdr, if you didnt have your handlebars pointed straight down and your shifters by your knees pointed towards your feet you'd be more stable in the hoods.

  11. #136
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    me and cdr as mods are kinda like this


  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    come on cdr, if you didnt have your handlebars pointed straight down and your shifters by your knees pointed towards your feet you'd be more stable in the hoods.
    haha

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    me and cdr as mods are kinda like this

    Yeah. I don't say anything.

  14. #139
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Made my morning.

  15. #140
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    I don't know who those two people are. Anyone explain?
    I'm sure when you were getting to the point of blowing nothing was obvious but making the pain stop...I don't know about you but after the fact I always look back at those moments and think 'why didn't I just keep going' but at the time there wasn't enough oxygen on the planet to make me take one more pedal stroke.

  16. #141
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Penn and Teller. If you are ever in Vegas and get a chance to see their show, DO IT. I cannot remember ever laughing so hard.

  17. #142
    Senior Member rankin116's Avatar
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    The guy on the right never speaks.

  18. #143
    Senior Member island rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    His right hand bounces off the bar - it slides off forward of the brake lever. .... Looks like a water filled pothole based on the water color.
    Your explanation here, hand sliding off the hood, is the most important part. I've heard you say the drops are better than the hoods, etc. But the slow-mo coupled with the explanation was really helpful.

    The real first problem here though was that he went through the puddle/pothole. That's a rule I learned as soon as I could walk. Unless you know you can walk on water, don't try, you never know what's under it. In this case, it was a pothole that took him out.
    "I think drivers become like dogs when they see a bicycle fly by at 40mph. Instinctively, they just want to give chase, catch them, and eat them." - Papa Tom

  19. #144
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You mean he's on the hoods at :08?

    Experience tells me there's no stability difference, and I don't get any lower in the hoods than the drops. I can touch my chin to the stem on the hoods. For me it's 'sprint on,' 'sprint off.'
    I agree with this Your Lordship.

    I spend 99.9% of my time (when I was riding) on the hoods. If on the drops it it 'sprint on'.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by island rider View Post
    Your explanation here, hand sliding off the hood, is the most important part. I've heard you say the drops are better than the hoods, etc. But the slow-mo coupled with the explanation was really helpful.

    The real first problem here though was that he went through the puddle/pothole. That's a rule I learned as soon as I could walk. Unless you know you can walk on water, don't try, you never know what's under it. In this case, it was a pothole that took him out.
    I agree that the pothole was the problem. But I'd give the guy a break there - there's water everywhere in that video, streaming across the road, and if the light was just wrong it'd be hard to see a dirt-stained-water-circle in the middle of the rest of it.

    I still stand by the "drops by default" thing. It's something that Eddy B actually drilled into his riders (that's how I learned about it, from someone that heard it from Eddy B). His thought is that you always have your thumb hooked around the bar in someway so you are using opposing digits. I realized after a few incidents that the hoods, once you're dealing with hidden brake cables, weren't ideal for control under duress. In fact, in 1983, when "aero brake levers" first came out (Dia Compe was really the first widely available and realistically usable one), there was debate if they were safe for racing since there was no brake cable sprouting out of the top to catch a rider's hand if he hit something hard. The aero brake lever folks argued that by eliminating the hoop of cable there was less to get caught up in a tight field. Obviously everyone decided it was okay to use aero brake levers.

    Related to the pothole thing you should never hit anything you think might be lightweight that's on the road. This means things like a paper bag (might have a brick in it), coffee cup, waterbottle, etc. I was on a group ride once, had rolled off the front for some reason. I saw a clear plastic bag on the side of the road, sort of inflated from the wind, about 2 feet high, 2 feet wide, give or take. I was going to ride through it as a joke but decided not to because it'd probably get caught up in the derailleur. I rode past it and could feel cold emanating from it. I stopped, turned around, and checked it out. It was a solid block of ice. I pointed it out to the others (I was standing next to it). We left it there - this was before cell phones and such, in the middle of nowhere.

  21. #146
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I've definitely had my hands slip off the hoods and cause a pucker moment. Your hands are slippery for whatever reason, you hit a bad bump, and whoa. Anytime I feel things could be dicey for any reason, I'm in the drops, and I give a conscious thought to relaxing my arms: corners, tight traffic, rough road, etc.

  22. #147
    Senior Member Nate552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You mean he's on the hoods at :08?

    Experience tells me there's no stability difference, and I don't get any lower in the hoods than the drops. I can touch my chin to the stem on the hoods. For me it's 'sprint on,' 'sprint off.'
    I think the hoods vs drops reference is too simplistic. I know Gerard Vroomen wrote a few blogs about this http://gerard.cc/2011/09/27/worlds-bar/. I think it has to do more with lowering your center of gravity to provide more stability. Some people get in the drop but simply extend their arms to compensate for the drop, and don't really get lower. So, other than a grip change, you haven't accomplished much. You have to lower your upper body to provide more stability.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnybutts View Post
    I don't know who those two people are. Anyone explain?
    texans...

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    I agree with this Your Lordship.

    I spend 99.9% of my time (when I was riding) on the hoods. If on the drops it it 'sprint on'.
    when your as fat and slow as you, it really doesn't matter.

  25. #150
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    I agree with this Your Lordship.

    I spend 99.9% of my time (when I was riding) on the hoods. If on the drops it it 'sprint on'.
    when riding alone, i rarely ride in the drops. heck i probably spend more time in the IAB than i do in the drops. actually, i take that back. i do climb in the drops, but rarely am i in the saddle and in the drops

    but when i'm racing, i'm in the drops most of time unless i'm driving a break, in which case, it's the IAB or hoods with forearms parallel to the ground

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