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  1. #1
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Do these fields make sense?

    We have a new local series, and I feel like CAT4s are getting short end of the stick. In terms of using these races to get upgrade points. They are combined with 3s, but then there is also a 2/3 field. Which I guess doesn't make 3s all that happy, since now they need to risk racing against 4's to get upgrade points, or chance it with 2s. All so that more masters races can be squeezed in. Or am I off the mark here?

    Flier:
    http://www.ncnca.org/sites/default/f...202%20OKED.pdf

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    Senior Member globecanvas's Avatar
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    Sometimes 3s get a choice of fields, sometimes 4s get a choice of fields. I'd rather do a 3/4 race than a 4/5 race personally. And I like the idea of an age group 3/4 field. The point of racing isn't necessarily to maximize your upgrade points...
    Ninny

  3. #3
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    Sometimes 3s get a choice of fields, sometimes 4s get a choice of fields. I'd rather do a 3/4 race than a 4/5 race personally. And I like the idea of an age group 3/4 field. The point of racing isn't necessarily to maximize your upgrade points...
    Well if not upgrade points then what? Certainly not the prizes. Oh look a box of gels! Teamwork? Almost none existent in 4s here. Even when a team has big enough presence.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member johnybutts's Avatar
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    Well.... **** everybody else because it's what matters to you that matters the most.
    I'm sure when you were getting to the point of blowing nothing was obvious but making the pain stop...I don't know about you but after the fact I always look back at those moments and think 'why didn't I just keep going' but at the time there wasn't enough oxygen on the planet to make me take one more pedal stroke.

  5. #5
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
    Certainly not the prizes.
    It's wine at these races, fwiw.

    Nonetheless, think about it this way - if you want points as a 4, then your goal is to be a 3. If you want to be a 3, you might as well start racing them now.. it's not that big of a jump really.

    I'll be there, in the 2/3's, and the 1/2's. Good luck!
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    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    If you want to be a 3, you might as well start racing them now.
    And if you're not competitive with the 3's, do you really want to upgrade?
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  7. #7
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    As a 54 year old Cat 3, I like those fields. I could race 45+ 3/4, without having to race 1,2's, and the 3/4 field, and have the stronger 3's in the 2/3 field.


    What it really offers though is a race where 2's can be competitive without have to race P/1.
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    Holy smokes that's a lot of fields. If I were a promoter I'd put a 4 race in there but I'm not that promoter.

    Having said that I think that until a person promotes a race they can't complain about a race, unless it's a safety thing. As a racer I take what I can get because I understand as a promoter that it's a frickin' pain to promote a race.

  9. #9
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    It's wine at these races, fwiw.

    Nonetheless, think about it this way - if you want points as a 4, then your goal is to be a 3. If you want to be a 3, you might as well start racing them now.. it's not that big of a jump really.

    I'll be there, in the 2/3's, and the 1/2's. Good luck!
    Oh yeah, wine, even worse. lol. *not a wine drinker.

    I understand what you are saying, and it is a good practice. Just that now I need to be competitive at at op end of 3s field, to get points. Which is higher then top end of 4s, not matter how you slice it. It might be not a big jump for some, but not for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Holy smokes that's a lot of fields. If I were a promoter I'd put a 4 race in there but I'm not that promoter.

    Having said that I think that until a person promotes a race they can't complain about a race, unless it's a safety thing. As a racer I take what I can get because I understand as a promoter that it's a frickin' pain to promote a race.
    It's less of a complaint and more lack of understanding behind the motivation. To maximize number of racers, money that come in?
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  10. #10
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    As a 54 year old Cat 3, I like those fields. I could race 45+ 3/4, without having to race 1,2's, and the 3/4 field, and have the stronger 3's in the 2/3 field.


    What it really offers though is a race where 2's can be competitive without have to race P/1.
    Yeah, one of the nice things about being a 46 year old Cat 3 is that I typically get a choice of 3 races to fit my schedule. But here, I get a choice of 5. Holy cow.

    You're right that it's unusual to not have a straight E3 or E4 race, but really does it matter?
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    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
    To maximize number of racers, money that come in?

  12. #12
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    You're right that it's unusual to not have a straight E3 or E4 race, but really does it matter?
    Hmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
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  13. #13
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    if you can't do well in the 3/4 race you probably shouldn't upgrade. If you can't do well in the 1/2/3 race you probably shouldn't upgrade. If you can't do well in the p/1/2 you probbaly shouldn't upgrade. simple as that young ones
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    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    if you can't do well in the 3/4 race you probably shouldn't upgrade. If you can't do well in the 1/2/3 race you probably shouldn't upgrade. If you can't do well in the p/1/2 you probbaly shouldn't upgrade. simple as that young ones
    Define "do well" in the points top 4 no. In top 15-10 sure with a bit of luck.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    in the points. outside of the top ten in a regular sized field and you basically aren't in the race (for example i was in a race where i got 6th, there were only 40 something guys in the race. i was like 2nd last in the break. I wasn't in the race that day, i was just hanging on).
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  16. #16
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    in the points. outside of the top ten in a regular sized field and you basically aren't in the race (for example i was in a race where i got 6th, there were only 40 something guys in the race. i was like 2nd last in the break. I wasn't in the race that day, i was just hanging on).
    In the points, usually top 4-5, with 3s No. In 4's yes. Just really need to work on tactics. Then again if I could place that well in the 3s, I would be racing in the 3s on my way to two, and not chugging along in 4s.
    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
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  17. #17
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    What it really offers though is a race where 2's can be competitive without have to race P/1.
    There are a lot of 2/3's races around here, which in some ways is a double-edged sword; sure we 2's get to play without 1's around, but in the end it just makes the 2's weaker. In the same way a 4 needs to compete against 3's eventually if that's where they're headed or want to head, 2's need to learn how to beat 1's.

    Fwiw almost all of the 2's in the 2/3's race do the p/1/2's race 10 minutes later.. which is painful! Fast Freddy won the first one in this series.
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    Understood on not being a complaint. I made a small leap and I shouldn't have done that so my bad.

    As a Cat 3 racer I don't like 2-3 races if that's the only choice I have. I'm not competitive in 2-3 races (or 1-2-3 or P123). I don't mind 3-4 races because it usually means a bigger field. I do like straight up 3 races because the riding quality is better, even if I don't do well.

    As a promoter I understand that combining categories makes for a bigger field. I do that at the races I promote - I have a Cat 4 race and a Cat 3-4 race for the 4s, and for the 3s it's the 3-4 race and a P123 race. My philosophy is to give the racers the first race to try and do well in and give them a second race to get in some speed work. I encouraged the White Plains Crit guys to do something similar and they more than doubled the number of racers that showed up (they also worked really hard to promote their race).

  19. #19
    Senior Member globecanvas's Avatar
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    The Johnny Cake series this year also added a field, so there's 1/2/3, 3/4, 4/5, and 5. Lots of choices and I think it was a great move.
    Ninny

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Yeah, one of the nice things about being a 46 year old Cat 3 is that I typically get a choice of 3 races to fit my schedule. But here, I get a choice of 5. Holy cow.

    You're right that it's unusual to not have a straight E3 or E4 race, but really does it matter?
    actually you have 6 choices, like you i am a 45+ cat3. i wish i had a little more warning, it would almost be worth the drive from socal to do a 35+ 3/4 and a 45+ 3/4. i guess i'll have to keep a closer eye on the norcal calendar.

  21. #21
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    There are a lot of 2/3's races around here, which in some ways is a double-edged sword; sure we 2's get to play without 1's around, but in the end it just makes the 2's weaker. In the same way a 4 needs to compete against 3's eventually if that's where they're headed or want to head, 2's need to learn how to beat 1's.

    Fwiw almost all of the 2's in the 2/3's race do the p/1/2's race 10 minutes later.. which is painful! Fast Freddy won the first one in this series.
    If you'd a 2 looking to become a 1, sure you need p12 races. If you're a terminal 2 it's got to be frustrating if you only have P12 races.
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  22. #22
    Senior Member topflightpro's Avatar
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    You want to be a 3 but you don't want to race against 3's because you can't get upgrade points against them. If you read the USAC upgrade criteria, there are three ways to get to a 3: Points, Top 10s and field finishes.

    So, all you have to do is finish in the field in the 3/4 races you do and that will get you upgrade criteria. Or, get some top 10s. If you cannot do that, then stop worrying about being a 3.

  23. #23
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
    You want to be a 3 but you don't want to race against 3's because you can't get upgrade points against them. If you read the USAC upgrade criteria, there are three ways to get to a 3: Points, Top 10s and field finishes.

    So, all you have to do is finish in the field in the 3/4 races you do and that will get you upgrade criteria. Or, get some top 10s. If you cannot do that, then stop worrying about being a 3.
    I don't want to upgrade on top ten, which I a think I have enough of now. Also I never said I don't want to race against 3s. You are putting words in to my mouth.
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