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  1. #51
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    hate
    /hāt/
    Verb
    Feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone): "the boys hate each other".
    Noun
    Intense or passionate dislike: "feelings of hate".

    skepĚtiĚcal
    /ˈskeptikəl/
    Adjective

    Not easily convinced; having doubts or reservations.
    Relating to the theory that certain knowledge is impossible.

    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2013...th-doping.html

  2. #52
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    and why the focused skepticism of Froome?

    it's very simple. He is the only one as yet this Tour who has put up numbers that are questionable. Today's TT is another data point in that direction. It was about as credible as Annecy 2009.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
    and why the focused skepticism of Froome?

    it's very simple. He is the only one as yet this Tour who has put up numbers that are questionable. Today's TT is another data point in that direction. It was about as credible as Annecy 2009.
    didnt sports scientists do an analysis that suggested annecy 2009 actually was credible because the time AC made up on the climby part of the TT was greater than what he lost to FC on the flat/downhill part of the TT, consistent with pacing theory?

    i'm asking, not advocating.

  4. #54
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    dunno.

    To me it wasn't credible because (as has been indicated by his more human performances since the ban) a 135 pound climber beating Cancellara in a TT (even one with a hill) is suspicious. If it were credible, then he'd still be tearing up time trials now that he's "Clean". He ain't.

    Here are the splits. Lots of TT specialists up near the top.

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/...l_95790#split5

  5. #55
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thechemist View Post
    Constantly improving in the young rider category like 11th than 6th(TdF). 2nd at british national TT in 2010. Top 15 finishes in 2011(i think it was 4th for the vuelta) on some big tours. 3rd in olympic TT. I mean sure it looks like he is doping and I probably have some tinted glasses as I do like the guy I just don't understand all the undue hate the guy has received?


    edit: I take that back, wiggins was also not well received. Maybe it is the team?
    It's the team.

    It's easy to see why people are suspicious of Froome, he does look very very strong. However, if one looks at his palmares his progress has been reasonably comsistent, he hasn't come from nowhere. He had undiagnosed bilharsia in his early twenties. That's a pretty convincing excuse for his rapid improvement once it was treated. He beat Wiggins in the ITT in the 2011 Vuelta, so it is no surprise that he can TT with the best. This is his fourth GT. he has podiumed in two and finished fourth in the other.

    Maybe he is doping, I don't know. I do know that when Contador (who appears unable to reproduce his previous level of performance since being busted) was crushing the opposition, he did not attract the hostility that Froome, and Wiggins, have encountered. I think it is that Sky are resented because they are rich, and arrogant, and their PR is crap.
    Last edited by chasm54; 07-10-13 at 04:40 PM.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  6. #56
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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  7. #57
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    I don't agree with that last part at all. People are more aware of what's been done by others who were doped up. When guys put up numbers that seem too good they're going to get called out on. Cause and effect. Athletes have sinned egregiously; now others, guilty or not will pay for that.

  8. #58
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    With someone like Martin you can sort of believe it. He's a big, heavy watt-masher like Cancellara. At least those guys seem human in the mountains. When an anorexic cover girl puts up times on flat TTs that rival those monsters my ears prick up.

  9. #59
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I don't agree with that last part at all. People are more aware of what's been done by others who were doped up. When guys put up numbers that seem too good they're going to get called out on. Cause and effect. Athletes have sinned egregiously; now others, guilty or not will pay for that.
    well said

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    It's the team.

    It's easy to see why people are suspicious of Froome, he does look very very strong. However, if one looks at his palmares his progress has been reasonably comsistent, he hasn't come from nowhere. He had undiagnosed bilharsia in his early twenties. That's a pretty convincing excuse for his rapid improvement once it was treated. He beat Wiggins in the ITT in the 2011 Vuelta, so it is no surprise that he can TT with the best. This is his fourth GT. he has podiumed in two and finished fourth in the other.

    Maybe he is doping, I don't know. I do know that when Contador (who appears unable to reproduce his previous level of performance since being busted) was crushing the opposition, he did not attract the hostility that Froome, and Wiggins, have encountered. I think it is that Sky are resented because they are rich, and arrogant, and their PR is crap.
    that's totally incorrect.

  11. #61
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    what puzzles me about contador (whom i believe has doped, he was a product of liberty seguros under manual saiz (sp), then disco/astana under johan bruynel (again sp), both well established as dirty programs) is that it would seem weird to me that he was doping during the 2011 giro. that was a dominant performance, and then in the vuelta last year he lacked something but found it for one incredible day. this year he's fallen off the map (compared to his old self).

    oh well, at least andy schleck proved today that he's still andy schleck.

  12. #62
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    that's totally incorrect.
    What, you think Contador in 2007 and 2008 was greeted with a chorus of accusations of doping? Not really, from where I was watching. In fact, considering his history with Operation Puerto (and the fact that he effectively inherited the 2008 tour from Rasmussen) I think it was remarkable how little he was pursued on the subject.

    I agree with you that his Giro performance in 2011 now looks anomalous.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    What, you think Contador in 2007 and 2008 was greeted with a chorus of accusations of doping? Not really, from where I was watching. In fact, considering his history with Operation Puerto (and the fact that he effectively inherited the 2008 tour from Rasmussen) I think it was remarkable how little he was pursued on the subject.

    I agree with you that his Giro performance in 2011 now looks anomalous.
    you must have been sitting with Phil and Paul.

  14. #64
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    you must have been sitting with Phil and Paul.
    More likely with Dave and Sean. But Sean doesn't like talking about doping, either...
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  15. #65
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    do a google search for:

    contadoper

  16. #66
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
    do a google search for:

    contadoper
    Sure, there were accusations about him doping. Ironically, iirc some of the more vitriolic came from Armstrong fans. But it wasn't universally assumed like it seems to be with Froome. That's not how I remember it, anyway.

    Of course, all that was before the fallout from the Armstrong debacle. Times, and perceptions, change...
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  17. #67
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  18. #68
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    ^^but this was after he had tested positive, not when he was first winning.

    Anyway, this is becoming a distraction. I'm happy to concede that many people thought AC was a doper from early on. I still contend, however, that Sky's unpopularity - which is, in part, their own fault - is exacerbating the hostility towards Froome. None of that is, however, central to the question of whether he's clean.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  19. #69
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    I am a little shocked they are kicking Cav to the curb here.
    "Cavendish not welcome at post-Tour Dutch Crit race."

    Hope today comes down to Kittel, Sagan and Cav

  20. #70
    Senior Member Dolamite02's Avatar
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    I think if Veelers weren't Dutch, they'd have said nothing about it. Seems like an unfortunate overreaction to the whole thing.
    I'm the guy that wins the group ride. That's dumb. It's time to win the race.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    ^^but this was after he had tested positive, not when he was first winning.

    Anyway, this is becoming a distraction. I'm happy to concede that many people thought AC was a doper from early on. I still contend, however, that Sky's unpopularity - which is, in part, their own fault - is exacerbating the hostility towards Froome. None of that is, however, central to the question of whether he's clean.

    i would agree with that.

  22. #72
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    you never catch cavendish at this stage of the race...

    except for, errr, right there.

  23. #73
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    Makes me wonder if Cav is slower than he was or if Kittel is faster or both.

  24. #74
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    overhead cam shot shows it: he's slower.

    If the line were much further up the road, Sagan would have passed him too.

  25. #75
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    if one rider beats the other to the line isn't the winner, by definition, faster?

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