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Old 07-10-13, 01:56 PM   #51
Grumpy McTrumpy
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hate
/hāt/
Verb
Feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone): "the boys hate each other".
Noun
Intense or passionate dislike: "feelings of hate".

skepĚtiĚcal
/ˈskeptikəl/
Adjective

Not easily convinced; having doubts or reservations.
Relating to the theory that certain knowledge is impossible.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2013...th-doping.html
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Old 07-10-13, 02:13 PM   #52
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and why the focused skepticism of Froome?

it's very simple. He is the only one as yet this Tour who has put up numbers that are questionable. Today's TT is another data point in that direction. It was about as credible as Annecy 2009.
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Old 07-10-13, 02:40 PM   #53
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and why the focused skepticism of Froome?

it's very simple. He is the only one as yet this Tour who has put up numbers that are questionable. Today's TT is another data point in that direction. It was about as credible as Annecy 2009.
didnt sports scientists do an analysis that suggested annecy 2009 actually was credible because the time AC made up on the climby part of the TT was greater than what he lost to FC on the flat/downhill part of the TT, consistent with pacing theory?

i'm asking, not advocating.
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Old 07-10-13, 03:02 PM   #54
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dunno.

To me it wasn't credible because (as has been indicated by his more human performances since the ban) a 135 pound climber beating Cancellara in a TT (even one with a hill) is suspicious. If it were credible, then he'd still be tearing up time trials now that he's "Clean". He ain't.

Here are the splits. Lots of TT specialists up near the top.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/...l_95790#split5
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Old 07-10-13, 03:36 PM   #55
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Constantly improving in the young rider category like 11th than 6th(TdF). 2nd at british national TT in 2010. Top 15 finishes in 2011(i think it was 4th for the vuelta) on some big tours. 3rd in olympic TT. I mean sure it looks like he is doping and I probably have some tinted glasses as I do like the guy I just don't understand all the undue hate the guy has received?


edit: I take that back, wiggins was also not well received. Maybe it is the team?
It's the team.

It's easy to see why people are suspicious of Froome, he does look very very strong. However, if one looks at his palmares his progress has been reasonably comsistent, he hasn't come from nowhere. He had undiagnosed bilharsia in his early twenties. That's a pretty convincing excuse for his rapid improvement once it was treated. He beat Wiggins in the ITT in the 2011 Vuelta, so it is no surprise that he can TT with the best. This is his fourth GT. he has podiumed in two and finished fourth in the other.

Maybe he is doping, I don't know. I do know that when Contador (who appears unable to reproduce his previous level of performance since being busted) was crushing the opposition, he did not attract the hostility that Froome, and Wiggins, have encountered. I think it is that Sky are resented because they are rich, and arrogant, and their PR is crap.

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Old 07-10-13, 03:38 PM   #56
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Old 07-10-13, 03:40 PM   #57
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I don't agree with that last part at all. People are more aware of what's been done by others who were doped up. When guys put up numbers that seem too good they're going to get called out on. Cause and effect. Athletes have sinned egregiously; now others, guilty or not will pay for that.
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Old 07-10-13, 03:47 PM   #58
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With someone like Martin you can sort of believe it. He's a big, heavy watt-masher like Cancellara. At least those guys seem human in the mountains. When an anorexic cover girl puts up times on flat TTs that rival those monsters my ears prick up.
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Old 07-10-13, 03:58 PM   #59
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I don't agree with that last part at all. People are more aware of what's been done by others who were doped up. When guys put up numbers that seem too good they're going to get called out on. Cause and effect. Athletes have sinned egregiously; now others, guilty or not will pay for that.
well said
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Old 07-10-13, 05:25 PM   #60
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It's the team.

It's easy to see why people are suspicious of Froome, he does look very very strong. However, if one looks at his palmares his progress has been reasonably comsistent, he hasn't come from nowhere. He had undiagnosed bilharsia in his early twenties. That's a pretty convincing excuse for his rapid improvement once it was treated. He beat Wiggins in the ITT in the 2011 Vuelta, so it is no surprise that he can TT with the best. This is his fourth GT. he has podiumed in two and finished fourth in the other.

Maybe he is doping, I don't know. I do know that when Contador (who appears unable to reproduce his previous level of performance since being busted) was crushing the opposition, he did not attract the hostility that Froome, and Wiggins, have encountered. I think it is that Sky are resented because they are rich, and arrogant, and their PR is crap.
that's totally incorrect.
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Old 07-10-13, 05:31 PM   #61
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what puzzles me about contador (whom i believe has doped, he was a product of liberty seguros under manual saiz (sp), then disco/astana under johan bruynel (again sp), both well established as dirty programs) is that it would seem weird to me that he was doping during the 2011 giro. that was a dominant performance, and then in the vuelta last year he lacked something but found it for one incredible day. this year he's fallen off the map (compared to his old self).

oh well, at least andy schleck proved today that he's still andy schleck.
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Old 07-11-13, 03:25 AM   #62
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that's totally incorrect.
What, you think Contador in 2007 and 2008 was greeted with a chorus of accusations of doping? Not really, from where I was watching. In fact, considering his history with Operation Puerto (and the fact that he effectively inherited the 2008 tour from Rasmussen) I think it was remarkable how little he was pursued on the subject.

I agree with you that his Giro performance in 2011 now looks anomalous.
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Old 07-11-13, 05:45 AM   #63
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What, you think Contador in 2007 and 2008 was greeted with a chorus of accusations of doping? Not really, from where I was watching. In fact, considering his history with Operation Puerto (and the fact that he effectively inherited the 2008 tour from Rasmussen) I think it was remarkable how little he was pursued on the subject.

I agree with you that his Giro performance in 2011 now looks anomalous.
you must have been sitting with Phil and Paul.
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Old 07-11-13, 07:56 AM   #64
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you must have been sitting with Phil and Paul.
More likely with Dave and Sean. But Sean doesn't like talking about doping, either...
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Old 07-11-13, 08:06 AM   #65
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do a google search for:

contadoper
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Old 07-11-13, 08:19 AM   #66
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do a google search for:

contadoper
Sure, there were accusations about him doping. Ironically, iirc some of the more vitriolic came from Armstrong fans. But it wasn't universally assumed like it seems to be with Froome. That's not how I remember it, anyway.

Of course, all that was before the fallout from the Armstrong debacle. Times, and perceptions, change...
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Old 07-11-13, 08:22 AM   #67
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Old 07-11-13, 08:35 AM   #68
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^^but this was after he had tested positive, not when he was first winning.

Anyway, this is becoming a distraction. I'm happy to concede that many people thought AC was a doper from early on. I still contend, however, that Sky's unpopularity - which is, in part, their own fault - is exacerbating the hostility towards Froome. None of that is, however, central to the question of whether he's clean.
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Old 07-11-13, 08:37 AM   #69
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I am a little shocked they are kicking Cav to the curb here.
"Cavendish not welcome at post-Tour Dutch Crit race."

Hope today comes down to Kittel, Sagan and Cav
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Old 07-11-13, 08:49 AM   #70
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I think if Veelers weren't Dutch, they'd have said nothing about it. Seems like an unfortunate overreaction to the whole thing.
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Old 07-11-13, 08:53 AM   #71
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^^but this was after he had tested positive, not when he was first winning.

Anyway, this is becoming a distraction. I'm happy to concede that many people thought AC was a doper from early on. I still contend, however, that Sky's unpopularity - which is, in part, their own fault - is exacerbating the hostility towards Froome. None of that is, however, central to the question of whether he's clean.

i would agree with that.
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Old 07-11-13, 08:58 AM   #72
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you never catch cavendish at this stage of the race...

except for, errr, right there.
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Old 07-11-13, 09:01 AM   #73
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Makes me wonder if Cav is slower than he was or if Kittel is faster or both.
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Old 07-11-13, 09:06 AM   #74
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overhead cam shot shows it: he's slower.

If the line were much further up the road, Sagan would have passed him too.
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Old 07-11-13, 09:18 AM   #75
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if one rider beats the other to the line isn't the winner, by definition, faster?
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