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  1. #51
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Botto...so low entry fees, deep payouts. Do the promoters just operate those things at a loss? Good race sponsorship? What's the model?

  2. #52
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjcampbell View Post
    Sort of off topic, hill climb I'm doing next weekend has a $500 first mile prime, done by time across all starting waves. Not sanctioned though.
    which one is that? What's the profile for the first mile? do you need to finish to collect?

  3. #53
    fair weather cyclist pjcampbell's Avatar
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    It's Equinox - https://www.bikereg.com/Net/19364Y

    You do have to finish, but only within 2 hours, which is slow. Unfortunately with them doing the fastest time across all waves (1 prime total, not one per wave) you wouldn't really know if you won until the end!! Last time I did it in 07, the winners of the prime were in the 0-29 category where I was racing, might say something about who goes for the prime, or maybe that is just where the fast guys are--it took them about 5:30 to do that first mile.

    Looks like it's around 8-9%?
    http://www.northeastcycling.com/Hill...s.html#Equinox

  4. #54
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    extra money for poor pacing.

  5. #55
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    balls to the wall for a mile and then soft pedal my 28 to the top.

  6. #56
    Senior Member topflightpro's Avatar
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    Wait, you can win money for racing well? Man, I've been doing it wrong all these years.

  7. #57
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    The Amaury's are doing OK. Other selected events both pro and amateur are very profitable. A lot aren't.

    Location, location, location.
    All I know is those Velo Promo folk look pretty broke..

    Side-note: winner of the p/1/2 race at Derby Days crit in WA gets $1,000. Hell, I got like $40 for placing 18th there. http://www.redmondderbydays.com/criterium
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  8. #58
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    You can run rough numbers for races like the local weeknighters. Field size x entry fees, subtract USAC costs (don't have those handy but they are findable), subtract prize list, add some number for sponsor donations (merch or cash, depends), subtract costs for the venue (enormous variable, ranging from free to "you don't want to ask".

    Ex casually mentions ASO as being rich, which is true, but their costs are enormous, and, we can only speculate about the specifics... we know the towns pay to be in a stage, we assume the regional tourism districts kick in all sorts of hard and soft costs... but ASO is a much larger enterprise than just bike racing.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Botto...so low entry fees, deep payouts. Do the promoters just operate those things at a loss? Good race sponsorship? What's the model?
    In Europe (and maybe other areas) the federation subsidizes a lot (no idea how much is sponsorship, permit fees, whatever else they do to raise money). When I raced in Belgium my entries were basically zero, prize money paid 20 or 40 places by the federation. The catch? A license there costed about $325. I paid $30 or $35. I told my teammate that raced there with me that the best way to race would be to get a US license and race in Europe. Of course the gas prices (at the time) would offset some of those savings. Filling my parent's ~10 gallon Sentra cost $90, at a time that gas in the US was about $1.15/gal. No idea what stuff costs there now.

  10. #60
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    All I know is those Velo Promo folk look pretty broke


    As G noted there are several folks in the US that promote full time.

  11. #61
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post


    As G noted there are several folks in the US that promote full time.
    family photo? Ex, i didn't know that you are an Okie

  12. #62
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post



    That took almost a full page longer than I though it would for someone to point that out.

    That was near to 6 months ago and while I'd like to say they are much bigger now, the reality is they aren't. Maybe a bit, but not much. I blame my father's chicken legs. Se la vie.
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  13. #63
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    Never realized that you're a leprechaun.

    Explains quite a bit.
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  14. #64
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    family photo? Ex, i didn't know that you are an Okie
    If you ever went to a Velopromo race, that picture would make sense.

  15. #65
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    If you ever went to a Velopromo race, that picture would make sense.
    +1, some of them have beards that rival mine.

    edit: however, I do not wear overalls so they beat me there.
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  16. #66
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jandro View Post
    +1, some of them have beards that rival mine.

    edit: however, I do not wear overalls so they beat me there.
    You do wear an overall. I believe it's called bib shorts

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by R578645 View Post
    So if the racers are not making much money, then where is all the money going from entry fees? It seems like a huge amount.
    There's a certain amount of fixed costs. Depending on how legit a promoter goes it can be a lot or not so much. Every club/promoter in the US using USAC would need to pay for permits, officials, and an annual club/promoter fee ($150 for the last one). Then you go from there. Police - $30-70/hour (that's what I've seen). Portapotties. Prize money. If it's an in-town course (not an industrial park) then police/DPW account for most of the budget (typically $30k for an event around here in a city).

    There can be other, more "deluxe" expenses. I have a tax ID number, there are state fees, I file quarterly things with the state. I pay a bunch of people wages, meaning I issue W2s (and therefore pay various payroll tax and such). I pay for workman's comp. Everything is above board, even the 1099s if I pay a contractor more than $600 in over a calendar year (so far not the case). Luckily my wife is a CPA so I don't pay for accounting, but she does things by the book so no under the table stuff for me. In a way it's good - I can get audited and I'll be fine so I don't worry about that stuff. For me there's a minimum cost I need to cover before I break even. At the beginning it was really tenuous. No money in either the race (it netted $30/week) or me (for a couple years I was literally surviving off of "end of day discards" from a bagel place) so I did as much as I could, sweeping the course by hand, sometimes by myself (after a CT winter there's a lot of sand on the course, typically a dumptruck or two full of sand). I begged for volunteers. I couldn't afford a generator so plugged a borrowed laptop into an inverter in someone else's car (burnt out two cars' wiring harness).

    Gradually I accumulated equipment. A throwaway laptop from work became registration. I bought a couple more brooms. As I got some money, I spent it on equipment. Even if the race made money I couldn't take any money out of the race because of the way it was set up. The only way I could get money from the race was if I won prize money (and this was one of the motivating factors for me to peak for Bethel).

    Now, after 20+ years, it's a pretty established race, so I can basically gamble $35+k annually that I'll see that money come back. That number shocked me - when my wife asked how much money I thought the race went through I guessed $2k a week so $14k, and in reality it's more than twice that amount. Prize money this year was over $12k cash, $500 gift cards to the coffee place (I paid full price for them), plus whatever donated merchandise. This is a super low budget race - low advertised prize money (increases with field size), just one cop, no DPW fees, no course fees, reasonably low entry fees ($15/week pre-reg series 1 race, $25/week pre-reg series 2 races, if you marshal you race free, $7 to add P123 as a second race, etc).

    To have to put that kind of money up front for a new race... it's not really possible for me. For the last couple years I made money off the race. Over the two years before that I sank a total $5500 into the race, and that included a $4k "sponsorship" from the prior not-for-profit organization that held the race for the prior 10 or 15 years (to transfer funds we had to have the old organization sponsor racers in the new organization's race). This means that the race lost $9500 or so in two years. Luckily I had a job where I could absorb those kinds of losses personally. Keep in mind this is a super low budget race. A downtown crit? Forget it.

    Until a few years ago I looked for no sponsorship. Some companies donated merchandise but I didn't look for cash, didn't ask for it. I changed that when it went to a for-profit. If it wasn't for the sponsorship money the race's finances would be extremely grim.

    Yet I feel fortunate. Someone told me that it cost them $8k to secure a course in CT (a park where a couple races happen each year). Another venue in RI charges a per-rider fee so it's more reasonable, no need to worry if the field is small.

    Etc etc.

    On the other hand someone told me that a particular ride organizer (not race) makes 6 figures from one ride. It's not a gran fondo but those kinds of rides I think make money for the promoter, in a big way. Events where the road is open, there are volunteers lined up, etc, they can make money right away. When I helped run a one day charity ride (to benefit cats) we raised more money in one day than any of one the first 18? years of Bethel.

  18. #68
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    I know someone who tried to put a downtown crit on in one of the bigger bergen county towns (blue laws, so it's mostly shut down on Sundays). The town wanted 10K. Short conversation.

  19. #69
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post

    Ha, indeed!

    But gawd bless them for putting on their races, even if some of them are pretty crappy.

    At least they have t-shirts for top placers usually.. I've got a growing collection of race beefy t's I'll never wear.
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  20. #70
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    You do wear an overall. I believe it's called bib shorts
    Touché.
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  21. #71
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    The Amaury's are doing OK. Other selected events both pro and amateur are very profitable. A lot aren't.

    Location, location, location.
    But almost nobody has a very well-known event guaranteed to draw the best racers in the world. Anthem Sports, the folks that put on the Tour of Battenkill, are probably one of the few promoters in the U.S. that are doing pretty well because that event always sells out and has wide name recognition. Most events in the U.S draw a relatively small number of riders. John Eustace puts on an annual race in Harlem and one in Philly that draws some low-level pros. You have to target pretty large markets to be successful and most of those large markets are already relatively saturated with races.

  22. #72
    . botto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    there's this little novelty ride called battenkill...

    as well a NYC promoter who does about 50 races a year.
    corrected.

  23. #73
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafzali View Post
    But almost nobody has a very well-known event guaranteed to draw the best racers in the world. Anthem Sports, the folks that put on the Tour of Battenkill, are probably one of the few promoters in the U.S. that are doing pretty well because that event always sells out and has wide name recognition. Most events in the U.S draw a relatively small number of riders.
    The statement was that "no one" was getting rich doing bike races. Not "most promoters aren't getting rich" The former is wrong. The latter is duh.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 07-25-13 at 05:08 PM.

  24. #74
    Senior Member globecanvas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    The statement was that "no one" was getting rich doing bike races. Not "most promoters aren't getting rich" The former is wrong. The latter is duh.
    Do you think even the top tier promoters are getting rich? My feeling has always been that the high profile guys (like Dieter, who does Battenkill and a half dozen other successful races known for highish entry fees, lowish payouts, decent organization and excellent marketing) are making a decent white collar salary from their work. Getting paid appropriately for doing a job well is different from "getting rich."

    But maybe I'm wrong and those races do generate inappropriate wads of pure profit. My a priori assumption has always been that bike racing, as a sector, couldn't possibly get anyone rich.
    Ninny

  25. #75
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    if Dieter is getting "rich" he doesn't show it. They have a bunch of kids and seem to live rather modestly, at least in public.

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