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  1. #51
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    I think our world views are too different for you to be able to understand my point. I wish you luck with your belief system.

  2. #52
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    the only way to avoid the crash that broke my elbow was to

    a) be in the break (I bridged late and got spit out as it surged when I connected)
    b) not sprint

    since I'm a sprinter not winning the field sprint would be kind of against the grain of why I'm there. I could avoid sprints, but I might as well not race.

    answer c) would be gain omniscience.

    Not much to learn honestly. Actually I find the idea that there should be something to learn indicative of folks not knowing their ass from their elbow. Then again I've won more races than many of the folks here have done.

  3. #53
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    I would agree that there are times that you can learn and times a crash is unavoidable.
    When I went down in 2010 here is how it played out:
    Sat and screwed around in the field for a while
    Started moving up
    Group of 2 got away and put about 20 seconds into the field of 100 guys
    With about 8-10 miles laps to go I jumped, bridge in a lap and on the way by the two jumped on my wheel and I towed them
    With 1 to go I finally looked back to see that I could no longer see the field (~40 second gap) and that there was only one guy left on my wheel
    I told him to pull through with 3/4 of a lap to go
    He pulled through and on the second last corner (there were two quick corners in sequence, I was on his wheel) he pedaled through, clicked his pedal and pancaked right in front of me at ~26-28
    Unfortunately he didn't slide out of the way he stopped instantly right in front of me
    With nowhere to go I t-boned him, went over the bars and ka-boom, I'm done

    In retrospect the one lesson I learned that day is I should have just kept the hammer down and played cat and mouse after the last corner as there is no way he would ever beat me head to head even after towing him that long.

    BUT I didn't and in looking at the crash there was no avoidance...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  4. #54
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
    At 10:25 mark, what was the clue that those two about to bin it?
    Both he (409) and his teammate (405) were on their hoods the whole race(!), surging and then braking and not taking a very tight line through turns (drifting all around). While that's not necessarily the cause of this crash, it's something to notice.

    I don't subscribe to the "crashing is always your fault" mentality, but FWIW, I would have marked both of those dudes as "don't be near".
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  5. #55
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jandro View Post
    Both he (409) and his teammate (405) were on their hoods the whole race(!), surging and then braking and not taking a very tight line through turns (drifting all around). While that's not necessarily the cause of this crash, it's something to notice.

    I don't subscribe to the "crashing is always your fault" mentality, but FWIW, I would have marked both of those dudes as "don't be near".
    Hmm, thanks. I'll re-watch the vid at home.
    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
    Stay calm and bring a towel.

  6. #56
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    All crashes are your fault, even the ones that aren't.
    That's where I stopped reading. Aside from the cognitive dissonance implicit in the statement, it's ultimate conclusion is supportable only by a premise that we should somehow be able to anticipate every eventuality or possibility, and can always chose the path away from a bad outcome. I get on an airliner that crashes. Clearly this is my fault for getting on the airliner, because airliners sometimes crash. The people riding on the bike path who were run over when the car went several hundred feet off the highway should have been more alert and veered left when they heard the engine.

    That sort of thing.

    It's mostly whistling in the cemetery.

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    However, there was a possible opportunity to see it coming. You could see that the Car wasn't going to make it through on the line it was on without hitting the tree. So it was possible to anticipate the problem.
    Might want to look at that again. Even had there been some nearly instantaneous peripheral vision recognition of the car and it's path (which is pushing the limits of practical expectation) the first rider struck was only inches from the rider to his right. Now if these were starlings you might have a point, but humans don't have the kind of programmed reaction that schools of fish and flights of birds have.

    Sheet happens. Oh well.

    Still waiting on why he's afraid of crashing.

    It's been my experience that if you go into something consciously afraid the likelihood of that which you are afraid of happening has a greater degree of actually happening.

  7. #57
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    basically the problem here is that "always" is an absolute and there are always exceptions.

    I'd take "mostly avoidable" for middleground. Mostly.

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  8. #58
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    Many crashes are avoidable. Some are not. Post-crash analysis is a necessary thing but sometimes you come up with .... nothing.

  9. #59
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post

    It's been my experience that if you go into something consciously afraid the likelihood of that which you are afraid of happening has a greater degree of actually happening.
    I agree with this. I also feel that the idea of analysis being a foolproof way to never crash will also lead to a greater degree of danger.

  10. #60
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
    I also feel that the idea of analysis being a foolproof way to never crash will also lead to a greater degree of danger.
    I agree.

    I do not think that analysis (or anything else) is a foolproof way to prevent crashes and did not say that in this thread. If you think I did, you have misread my posts.

  11. #61
    Senior Member globecanvas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    It's been my experience that if you go into something consciously afraid the likelihood of that which you are afraid of happening has a greater degree of actually happening.

    Target fixation.
    Ninny

  12. #62
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    A guy swung out left pretty hard at Wells Ave a couple weeks ago
    The course is all right turns.

  13. #63
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    since I'm a sprinter not winning the field sprint would be kind of against the grain of why I'm there. I could avoid sprints, but I might as well not race.
    I'll agree that there are crashes that can be avoided. A few take a split second decision, acute bike handling skills, and a lot of help from above. I have had a lot of help up until this spring, when it finally caught up with me. I wasn't sprinting, but I was attacking, and it is these time-compressed all-out moments where it gets infinitely more difficult to avoid bad situations. It didn't help to have a guy 30 pounds heavier than me leaning all over me like he wanted to make kwaki love. Some things are just going to happen no matter how hard you try to avoid them.

    OP, if you are seriously afraid of crashing, don't race. Go chase some Strava KOM's or some other fredly thing. Get your mind right first.

    That is not to say that I don't get the jitters before the start of a race, which I do sometimes. It's not because of fear of crashing, it's because of fear of not executing. Once we roll off and get through the first few corners I'm settled down. If that's all this is, then you are just like many of us and you're being too hard on yourself.

  14. #64
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    The course is all right turns.
    And only of those is even a turn. But I'm a forgiving kind of guy, I didn't even imply that his mother was a prostitute after the race.
    ISO: used, working Shimano 10-speed shifters/groups (6600, 6700, 7800, 7900). PM por favor.

  15. #65
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    OP, if you are seriously afraid of crashing, don't race. Go chase some Strava KOM's or some other fredly thing.
    Other fredly things: electric lights, xerox photo copiers, jet planes, dinner after 5pm

    twitter.com/ygduf
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