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Old 10-17-13, 04:07 PM   #176
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I find winning to be fun. What most guys find fun as relates to bicycles bores me to tears.
It's because you're so hardcore!

I find the guys who are "winning is everything" to be kind of sad, but to them they have their own views and feelings.

It's almost like we're describing "subjective".
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Old 10-17-13, 05:39 PM   #177
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He's just wired differently than you. He's definitely wired differently than me, but we make pretty good teammates, and we both have had a lot of success in this stupid sport.
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Old 10-17-13, 06:21 PM   #178
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i feel that all of your fools are weird.
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Old 10-17-13, 07:53 PM   #179
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It's because you're so hardcore!

I find the guys who are "winning is everything" to be kind of sad, but to them they have their own views and feelings.

It's almost like we're describing "subjective".
I didn't say winning is everything. I said I find it to be fun. And there are myriad other things I'd rather do than riding a bicycle. I'm usually doing those things as well.
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Old 10-17-13, 08:22 PM   #180
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He's just wired differently than you. He's definitely wired differently than me, but we make pretty good teammates, and we both have had a lot of success in this stupid sport.
I kinda recall you saying you wanted to win a few more races last year? Me, I'm just happy to be out there. Serious surgeries tend to do that. Folks project a lot I find. I like to be competitive, that hardly means I consider this important. Racing bicycles is a hobby. As far as recreation goes I'd rather go hiking with my wife and dog than put in endless hours on the bike. Spending time with my family, at our place in the mountains, meditating and teaching. Shrug. I put 10 hours or so into the sport a week. I'm pretty comfortable where my priorities are.
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Old 10-18-13, 03:38 AM   #181
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Here are a few of my goals:

1. Put in a lot of miles. I want to do more 100+ mile days, just because I love it. I wish I had more time.

...also train effectively, which I understand is not necessarily the same as logging tons of miles.

2. Get in better shape.

3. Start racing.

Here are two outlandish goals:

1. Do the "Roan Groan" Road Race (Johnson City Omnium), which has a 7 mile uphill finish, as my first race, and win it. Or at least survive it. There's also a crit and a tt. I want to do those, too.

2. This one is long-term. Race at a Cat 1 and/or pro level. Probably impossible. I'm already 32 yrs old. I'll probably never get there, having started so late in the game.
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Old 10-18-13, 04:37 AM   #182
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There's a lot of hand wringing over results here. Three of the most popular threads right now have to deal with results from this season, goals for next season, and limiters to success. I don't think I started any of those. The truth is folks in general spend a ponderous amount of time wishing they were better, faster, something anything more than they are now. It's one of the very human movements of the mind that mire us in dissatisfaction. The truth is the things that are most apt to to improve ones cycling aren't 'fun' in the let's go to the arcade and get a balloon kinda way. And they're usually not about duration, because frankly few of us race events that are epic in length on a regular basis. The things most folks need to work on are related to dealing with pain, improving performance in painful zones, and recovering quickly to be in pain again. The things that aid that also aren't fun in typically hedonistic ways. It's about rest, and diet, and more rest. And then pain. So we spend a lot of time and money and posts wanting things to be a particular way, and then frequently undermine our desires by not really doing what's called for or by doing them and hating them.

I remember my mom's friends asking me to train them in diet and exercise a number of decades back (like too many to count). They didn't really want to hear about balance and moderation or consistency. 'Weight watchers lets you have chocolate cake.' {SMH)

I can't wait to get skinny so I can have chocolate cake.

The question for folks is what's your goal. For my mom's friends it was 'to look good.' There was an end to achieve and they hated, viewed as an impediment, what they needed to do to achieve that goal. And of course in predictable ways as soon as they reached their goal it quickly receded and they lost sight of it again. So do you hate the painful intervals that you think necessary to obtain some race goal? Whether I'm hiking alone, riding, lifting, I like to push my body to see what it can do...for the sake of seeing what the body and mind can do. This is a lifestyle to me. I enjoy my lifestyle. For me exercise is just an extension of the rest of my practice. Racing as well. I'm racing against myself out there. So whether I'm doing 3x20s in my basement, TTing some climb, or hiking my local mountain, fun for me is living the life I've chosen. I do more meditation 1 on 1s a week than I put hours in on the bike. Should I like one more than the other? The goal for me is to continue to refine the mind so there's really no difference in the things I'm doing.
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Old 10-18-13, 05:00 AM   #183
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There's a lot of hand wringing over results here. Three of the most popular threads right now have to deal with results from this season, goals for next season, and limiters to success. I don't think I started any of those. The truth is folks in general spend a ponderous amount of time wishing they were better, faster, something anything more than they are now. It's one of the very human movements of the mind that mire us in dissatisfaction. The truth is the things that are most apt to to improve ones cycling aren't 'fun' in the let's go to the arcade and get a balloon kinda way. And they're usually not about duration, because frankly few of us race events that are epic in length on a regular basis. The things most folks need to work on are related to dealing with pain, improving performance in painful zones, and recovering quickly to be in pain again. The things that aid that also aren't fun in typically hedonistic ways. It's about rest, and diet, and more rest. And then pain. So we spend a lot of time and money and posts wanting things to be a particular way, and then frequently undermine our desires by not really doing what's called for or by doing them and hating them.

I remember my mom's friends asking me to train them in diet and exercise a number of decades back (like too many to count). They didn't really want to hear about balance and moderation or consistency. 'Weight watchers lets you have chocolate cake.' {SMH)

I can't wait to get skinny so I can have chocolate cake.

The question for folks is what's your goal. For my mom's friends it was 'to look good.' There was an end to achieve and they hated, viewed as an impediment, what they needed to do to achieve that goal. And of course in predictable ways as soon as they reached their goal it quickly receded and they lost sight of it again. So do you hate the painful intervals that you think necessary to obtain some race goal? Whether I'm hiking alone, riding, lifting, I like to push my body to see what it can do...for the sake of seeing what the body and mind can do. This is a lifestyle to me. I enjoy my lifestyle. For me exercise is just an extension of the rest of my practice. Racing as well. I'm racing against myself out there. So whether I'm doing 3x20s in my basement, TTing some climb, or hiking my local mountain, fun for me is living the life I've chosen. I do more meditation 1 on 1s a week than I put hours in on the bike. Should I like one more than the other? The goal for me is to continue to refine the mind so there's really no difference in the things I'm doing.

I've been feeling and thinking this, as well. Not just the bolded part, but I think that's a good summation. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

That made me think this:

I want to race, but maybe I want to do something more like RAAM. The pain and cold and dark alone-ness I felt when I did my solo century last month was comforting and familiar. All I had to do was draw upon my own resources, mentally and physically. Hell, in that light, it was easy. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...tury?highlight=

I don't know if I can ever win a race, but life so far has shown me that I'm not breakable. Not really. I just wonder what I'm here for.

Pain and suffering don't matter. Winning really doesn't matter. Being better than others? No.

What matters is being self-actualized, doing a thing and doing it well. Using everything you have. No matter what you do.

For me, anyway.

Every step prepares me for the next, in one way or another. The total sum of my life experience is what I bring to the table. What I seek is a sense of fulfillment, and, hopefully, a life not wasted.

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Old 10-18-13, 05:44 AM   #184
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Gary - You sound grumpy this morning.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing in the threads you've mentioned, probably due to our respective affective filters. What I'm seeing, for the most part, is people expressing goals which stretch their personal limits, the willingness to do the work required, and in some cases disappointment that their life doesn't permit them the time and/or opportunity to do the required work. For some, the knowledge of what work is needed is lacking; for others, the goals are imprecise. But the consistent thread is "I want to get better," rather than "I want to get better than XXX." The goals are internal rather than external. And we're willing to skip the chocolate cake, even though we may backslide occasionally.
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Old 10-18-13, 05:49 AM   #185
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Gary - You sound grumpy this morning.
For real?

shakes head
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Old 10-18-13, 05:50 AM   #186
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Goals:
1) Enter season at a more reasonable weight (currently 8 lbs less than beginning of 2013, would like to lose another 5-8).
2) Develop a more consistent training regime so that I can learn better how my body reacts to different things.
3) Enter and Finish at least 10 races in 2014.
4) One Podium finish in 2014.

Not really my racing performance, but racing in general:
1) Increase turnout at 2014 Leonardtown Crit so the race becomes a consistent part of the MABRA race schedule for years to come. Almost wasn't going to happen this year if I didn't step up to lead organizing.
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Old 10-18-13, 06:14 AM   #187
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I think most people will read gsteinb's comments and assume he is accusing people of being chocolate cake wanters just like his mom's friends, looking for a magic solution to meet their goals without any willingness to do hard work. I don't think that is the theme here, but I also don't think that's his point, it's more of an parable to support his point.

I see the point more as, if your goal is get a specific type of result, it's the wrong goal. The goal has to be the process itself.

I think that's a useful insight, but it's also important to acknowledge that there are degrees of everything. Nobody is here because they decided they wanted to win a bike race, then started trying to figure out how. People are here because they are motivated to ride their bikes hard, and motivated by competition. Both of those motivations are about the process, whether the good feeling of being strong or the thrill and heightened experience of a race. Frustration about "results" can obscure those basic motivations, but it was those motivations, and not the desire to get a specific result, that brought each of us into racing in the first place.
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Old 10-18-13, 06:26 AM   #188
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Goals:
1) Enter season at a more reasonable weight (currently 8 lbs less than beginning of 2013, would like to lose another 5-8).
2) Develop a more consistent training regime so that I can learn better how my body reacts to different things.
3) Enter and Finish at least 10 races in 2014.
4) One Podium finish in 2014.

Not really my racing performance, but racing in general:
1) Increase turnout at 2014 Leonardtown Crit so the race becomes a consistent part of the MABRA race schedule for years to come. Almost wasn't going to happen this year if I didn't step up to lead organizing.
for the last point, perhaps have it earlier or later in than the current date on the calendar? Right now it conflicts with Ride Sally Ride (what kind of an effing pun is that anyway?). Personally, with crits, i don't mind it doing it in the dead of summer, but i'd be just as happy with an early season race. If i want to indulge a bit here, i'd prefer not to have it in conflict with either ToWC or Tour of Tucker County. Reston may not be happening this year, and it could be a good place on the calendar for you guys.
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Old 10-18-13, 06:39 AM   #189
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EDIT: We were looking at the date. The reston folks are attempting to hold a race at another venue.

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Old 10-18-13, 06:43 AM   #190
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Other thoughts I've had:

1) Get more local businesses on board to provide food/drink to hopefully drawin sponsors. Hopefully can bring out more of the young active local crowd (a ton of those on base 20 minutes away) to improve the financial aspects of putting on the race.
2) Reduce logistics of teams bringing larger numbers. Have considered perhaps giving dedicated "pit" space with tents to teams that bring 5 or more racers.
3) Improve website with details on lodging/parking/etc. The club website is getting redone, the crit info needs to be better presented. This year's race had the details from last years up for a long time until the month or so before the race.
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Old 10-18-13, 06:46 AM   #191
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For real?

shakes head
No, you don't. That's good insight, thanks. Things to think about.
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Old 10-18-13, 06:49 AM   #192
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I think most people will read gsteinb's comments and assume he is accusing people of being chocolate cake wanters just like his mom's friends, looking for a magic solution to meet their goals without any willingness to do hard work. I don't think that is the theme here, but I also don't think that's his point, it's more of an parable to support his point.

I see the point more as, if your goal is get a specific type of result, it's the wrong goal. The goal has to be the process itself.

I think that's a useful insight, but it's also important to acknowledge that there are degrees of everything. Nobody is here because they decided they wanted to win a bike race, then started trying to figure out how. People are here because they are motivated to ride their bikes hard, and motivated by competition. Both of those motivations are about the process, whether the good feeling of being strong or the thrill and heightened experience of a race. Frustration about "results" can obscure those basic motivations, but it was those motivations, and not the desire to get a specific result, that brought each of us into racing in the first place.
Yes. It's also illusrated by how we often view others. The guy who wins all the races is either a) a doper b) way more genetically gifted c) has his priorities out of whack. And while some of that may be true at times more often than not the guys with the palmares are the guys who can suffer and don't view what it takes to race on a high level as sacrificing.

more than anything, like any religious or spiritual calling, this is about discipline. you know, just do it.
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Old 10-18-13, 11:17 AM   #193
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There's a lot of hand wringing over results here. Three of the most popular threads right now have to deal with results from this season, goals for next season, and limiters to success. I don't think I started any of those. The truth is folks in general spend a ponderous amount of time wishing they were better, faster, something anything more than they are now. It's one of the very human movements of the mind that mire us in dissatisfaction. The truth is the things that are most apt to to improve ones cycling aren't 'fun' in the let's go to the arcade and get a balloon kinda way. And they're usually not about duration, because frankly few of us race events that are epic in length on a regular basis. The things most folks need to work on are related to dealing with pain, improving performance in painful zones, and recovering quickly to be in pain again. The things that aid that also aren't fun in typically hedonistic ways. It's about rest, and diet, and more rest. And then pain. So we spend a lot of time and money and posts wanting things to be a particular way, and then frequently undermine our desires by not really doing what's called for or by doing them and hating them.

I remember my mom's friends asking me to train them in diet and exercise a number of decades back (like too many to count). They didn't really want to hear about balance and moderation or consistency. 'Weight watchers lets you have chocolate cake.' {SMH)

I can't wait to get skinny so I can have chocolate cake.

The question for folks is what's your goal. For my mom's friends it was 'to look good.' There was an end to achieve and they hated, viewed as an impediment, what they needed to do to achieve that goal. And of course in predictable ways as soon as they reached their goal it quickly receded and they lost sight of it again. So do you hate the painful intervals that you think necessary to obtain some race goal? Whether I'm hiking alone, riding, lifting, I like to push my body to see what it can do...for the sake of seeing what the body and mind can do. This is a lifestyle to me. I enjoy my lifestyle. For me exercise is just an extension of the rest of my practice. Racing as well. I'm racing against myself out there. So whether I'm doing 3x20s in my basement, TTing some climb, or hiking my local mountain, fun for me is living the life I've chosen. I do more meditation 1 on 1s a week than I put hours in on the bike. Should I like one more than the other? The goal for me is to continue to refine the mind so there's really no difference in the things I'm doing.
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more than anything, like any religious or spiritual calling, this is about discipline. you know, just do it.
Great stuff.
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Old 10-18-13, 12:29 PM   #194
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Somewhat relevant:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/...process_306088
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Old 10-18-13, 12:32 PM   #195
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For real?

shakes head
yes
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Old 10-18-13, 12:39 PM   #196
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ok
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Old 10-18-13, 02:05 PM   #197
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man, this thread blew up!

i read this and it really resonated as i feel the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
...This is a lifestyle to me. I enjoy my lifestyle. For me exercise is just an extension of the rest of my practice. Racing as well. I'm racing against myself out there. ...
gsteinb touches on the fact that for some people, stating goals implies that they are dissatisfied with who or where they are now. i agree that is true for some people. my hope is that anyone who posted a goal in this thread was doing so for the betterment of himself, perhaps to create some accountability for when times are tough. sometimes reading others' goals (especially outlandish ones) can inspire us to do more in our own lives.

i think it is entirely possible to have aspirational goals and to still be happy in the moment. being content need not mean complacent.

we each find something in the sport (/hobby) that we want or need in our life. few of us will race a bike as our job, so we better find something in it that is meaningful at a deeper level. i assume that most folks who find them here have done just that, at some level. the beauty is that what one person takes out of it may not be what another takes out of it, and yet both people can get what they need and leave satisfied. it's not zero-sum.

it's also really easy to read some posts by people on this or any forum and draw conclusions about the rest of their lives. it's not hard to invent obsessions that may not exist in reality. it shouldn't be the case but it is harder to assume most of us walk away from the computer after posting and get on with the rest of life, like work, family, friends, and the universe of other non-biking interests (is that possible!?!).
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Old 10-18-13, 02:15 PM   #198
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man, this thread blew up!

i read this and it really resonated as i feel the same way.


gsteinb touches on the fact that for some people, stating goals implies that they are dissatisfied with who or where they are now. i agree that is true for some people. my hope is that anyone who posted a goal in this thread was doing so for the betterment of himself, perhaps to create some accountability for when times are tough. sometimes reading others' goals (especially outlandish ones) can inspire us to do more in our own lives.

i think it is entirely possible to have aspirational goals and to still be happy in the moment. being content need not mean complacent.

we each find something in the sport (/hobby) that we want or need in our life. few of us will race a bike as our job, so we better find something in it that is meaningful at a deeper level. i assume that most folks who find them here have done just that, at some level. the beauty is that what one person takes out of it may not be what another takes out of it, and yet both people can get what they need and leave satisfied. it's not zero-sum.

it's also really easy to read some posts by people on this or any forum and draw conclusions about the rest of their lives. it's not hard to invent obsessions that may not exist in reality. it shouldn't be the case but it is harder to assume most of us walk away from the computer after posting and get on with the rest of life, like work, family, friends, and the universe of other non-biking interests (is that possible!?!).
Cycling and doing so competitively fills up certain voids in my life. it also helps me get stronger.

If I can manage to put myself through 100miles of suffering and agony voluntarily chances are I can deal with life as it is, be it stressful events at work, relationship struggles etc when necessary. I also leave a "legacy" with my accomplishments and create a certain identity in my community and those who sorround me. I get to be known for something other than being a moocher. Last but not least, it keeps me in good physical and mental condition so I can live a better life at its fullest.

So yea, as simple as it is it fills my void 3 ways:
* Gives me health
* Gives me strength
* Provides an identity and sense of purpose.

May be sad but it is true. And I dont think it's sad. Whatever floats your boat.

PS. Lets not make it sound that pathetic... I only race bicycles because I can't afford to race motorcycles
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Old 10-18-13, 02:46 PM   #199
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man, this thread blew up!

i read this and it really resonated as i feel the same way.


gsteinb touches on the fact that for some people, stating goals implies that they are dissatisfied with who or where they are now. i agree that is true for some people. my hope is that anyone who posted a goal in this thread was doing so for the betterment of himself, perhaps to create some accountability for when times are tough. sometimes reading others' goals (especially outlandish ones) can inspire us to do more in our own lives.

i think it is entirely possible to have aspirational goals and to still be happy in the moment. being content need not mean complacent.

we each find something in the sport (/hobby) that we want or need in our life. few of us will race a bike as our job, so we better find something in it that is meaningful at a deeper level. i assume that most folks who find them here have done just that, at some level. the beauty is that what one person takes out of it may not be what another takes out of it, and yet both people can get what they need and leave satisfied. it's not zero-sum.

it's also really easy to read some posts by people on this or any forum and draw conclusions about the rest of their lives. it's not hard to invent obsessions that may not exist in reality. it shouldn't be the case but it is harder to assume most of us walk away from the computer after posting and get on with the rest of life, like work, family, friends, and the universe of other non-biking interests (is that possible!?!).
You're missing the nuance of what I'm saying a bit. Goals are fine. I have plenty. The shift is in how we meet the moment when we achieve or don't achieve those goals. More often than not the movement of the mind is a) self recrimination or b) justification. That's because the goal isn't really the goal. The goal (winning the big race) is something that will get us noticed, or provide us with some ephemeral sense pleasure. We want to be seen. This is one of the core cravings in life. Recognition. This is the movement that leads us to say I can't compete on that level because they're all dopers. Or, those guys all have their priorities out of whack. Or any other justification we make. The internet is filled with excuses. But we don't need the excuses if we don't cling too tightly to the goal. The question I'm asking, the inquiry I'm trying to live in, is what happens when the goal is simply to work hard, live right, and find enjoyment and satisfaction in that. The koan in it is that's the very thing that creates race winners. That's when we lose and we can say I tried my best, and we'll start again tomorrow. And we simply try and learn what we can from the experience, because the path itself is the goal.
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Old 10-18-13, 02:54 PM   #200
revchuck
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
You're missing the nuance of what I'm saying a bit. Goals are fine. I have plenty. The shift is in how we meet the moment when we achieve or don't achieve those goals. More often than not the movement of the mind is a) self recrimination or b) justification. That's because the goal isn't really the goal. The goal (winning the big race) is something that will get us noticed, or provide us with some ephemeral sense pleasure. We want to be seen. This is one of the core cravings in life. Recognition. This is the movement that leads us to say I can't compete on that level because they're all dopers. Or, those guys all have their priorities out of whack. Or any other justification we make. The internet is filled with excuses. But we don't need the excuses if we don't cling too tightly to the goal. The question I'm asking, the inquiry I'm trying to live in, is what happens when the goal is simply to work hard, live right, and find enjoyment and satisfaction in that. The koan in it is that's the very thing that creates race winners. That's when we lose and we can say I tried my best, and we'll start again tomorrow. And we simply try and learn what we can from the experience, because the path itself is the goal.
Got it. I can be obtuse in the morning.
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