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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You're missing the nuance of what I'm saying a bit. Goals are fine. I have plenty.
    thanks for clarifying.

    i mentioned your username because a particular line in your post resonated with me, but the rest of my post (i didn't make it clear) was speaking more to the whole discussion that had taken place in the last page or so.

    i understand your philosophy as written and happen to agree with it; i try to live it myself (therein is a quest). the example i might give is the whole 'we train in order to race' philosophy that often gets expounded. i (and many others) spend way more time training than racing, so if i don't love training as well as racing then i better change my mindset to find a way to enjoy it.

    i believe in accountability and lack of excuses. i dislike the point of view that stating an objective can, in some circles, act as a proxy for actually achieving anything meaningful. intention is ok, but action is notable. the paradox comes in where we need intention to guide action.

    if our pursuit is only the end result, it is often a path that leads to dissatisfaction. cycling especially seems to be a ripe ground for this. for example, if one finishes 2nd he could have finished 3rd. if one climbs the hill in 30:01 perhaps he could have done it in 29:59. if one wins the 35+ race, well, it wasn't the pro/1 race. people upgrade and upgrade until they reach a point where (most people) simply can't compete. you get the idea.

    until one realizes there is joy and satisfaction in the process, whether it is cycling or anything else, the outcome may either be unsatisfying or fleeting in terms of satisfaction.

    but in the end, who really cares what someone else does or doesn't get out of the sport? (not saying you feel this way.) when i re-read the thread i don't find anywhere where people said they would be unsatisfied if they try their best and fail to achieve their goals, so we can give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they might feel as you do--or at least have more similarities than differences.

    i think fudgy said it somewhere above, effectively 'training is fun.' i took that to mean he finds joy in the process.

    you wrote earlier that 'winning is fun' (it seemed to me like you presented it in opposition to what he wrote). when we strip the zen from it, i take the broad meaning of what you write directly above to mean that when we distill things to their core, your point of view probably has more in common with what fudgy succinctly stated than you take exception to it.

    because one wants to be a 'better person' (faster racer?) in the future does not mean one is not good enough today. seems like we all agree on that.

  2. #202
    Senior Member eskimo85's Avatar
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    i want to get back to cat 2 shape and do a full season of racing next year.

  3. #203
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post

    I understand your philosophy as written and happen to agree with it; i try to live it myself (therein is a quest). the example i might give is the whole 'we train in order to race' philosophy that often gets expounded. i (and many others) spend way more time training than racing, so if i don't love training as well as racing then i better change my mindset to find a way to
    you wrote earlier that 'winning is fun' (it seemed to me like you presented it in opposition to what he wrote). when we strip the zen from it, i take the broad meaning of what you write directly above to mean that when we distill things to their core, your point of view probably has more in common with what fudgy succinctly stated than you take exception to it.
    I jumped in to say fun is an unquantifiable and elusive metric. what one finds fun, another not so much. It's frequently linked to form, which by the standards bandied about isn't much fun to achieve. As I said I find winning fun and I find winning flows naturally from training hard and living right which is where my passion is. It was fudgy who categorized me as a winning is the only thing guy and said guys like me were sad. Shovel said I was wired different, whatever that actually means. Like I've been saying, and you're saying, it's kinda weird to project stuff on guys for a cycling forum. My point was that because I have success guys want to imagine my life to be out of balance in some way. Not just here. But truth is that I'm successful because my life has balance and the way I approach things. Despite whatever successes I have in cycling it's a justifiably small piece of my life.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I jumped in to say fun is an unquantifiable and elusive metric. what one finds fun, another not so much. It's frequently linked to form, which by the standards bandied about isn't much fun to achieve. As I said I find winning fun and I find winning flows naturally from training hard and living right which is where my passion is. It was fudgy who categorized me as a winning is the only thing guy and said guys like me were sad. Shovel said I was wired different, whatever that actually means. Like I've been saying, and you're saying, it's kinda weird to project stuff on guys for a cycling forum. My point was that because I have success guys want to imagine my life to be out of balance in some way. Not just here. But truth is that I'm successful because my life has balance and the way I approach things. Despite whatever successes I have in cycling it's a justifiably small piece of my life.
    defining someone as a 'winning is the only thing' based on an internet forum is folly at best, and i think that's what we really miss in all of this.

    fun is one of those things that, like art, may be unquantifiable but we know it when we see it. it is a bit of a stretch, but someone else might say, too, that winning is less quantifiable than it would at first seem. 'winning' the cat 5 race? 'winning' the cat 3 race?

    'focusing the process' is also something that is unquantifiable.

    imagining that someone else's life is out of balance may be true, but it probably says more about the person doing the imagining than it does about the 'imaginee'.

    all that stuff aside, is any actually inspired reading about others' goals? i am. i hope that i can in some small way encourage others to achieve more than they thought possible, perhaps through my own actions and hard work in pursuit of a goal. yes, that goal may be arbitrary and lack meaning in the grand scheme of the world, but it could still be inspirational. i find my goals on the bike turn out to have much more to do with things off the bike.

    remember this equation: talk - action = nothing.

  5. #205
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
    defining someone as a 'winning is the only thing' based on an internet forum is folly at best, and i think that's what we really miss in all of this.

    fun is one of those things that, like art, may be unquantifiable but we know it when we see it. it is a bit of a stretch, but someone else might say, too, that winning is less quantifiable than it would at first seem. 'winning' the cat 5 race? 'winning' the cat 3 race?

    'focusing the process' is also something that is unquantifiable.

    imagining that someone else's life is out of balance may be true, but it probably says more about the person doing the imagining than it does about the 'imaginee'.

    all that stuff aside, is any actually inspired reading about others' goals? i am. i hope that i can in some small way encourage others to achieve more than they thought possible, perhaps through my own actions and hard work in pursuit of a goal. yes, that goal may be arbitrary and lack meaning in the grand scheme of the world, but it could still be inspirational. i find my goals on the bike turn out to have much more to do with things off the bike.

    remember this equation: talk - action = nothing.
    Definitely.
    judging from what you post on here it seems having a powermeter has caused you to focus on ewang numbers without much a focus on developing actual fitness.

  6. #206
    Senior Member dave42's Avatar
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    tetonrider said:
    "man, this thread blew up!

    i read this and it really resonated as i feel the same way. "

    Originally Posted by gsteinb
    ...This is a lifestyle to me. I enjoy my lifestyle. For me exercise is just an extension of the rest of my practice. Racing as well. I'm racing against myself out there. ..."


    yeah, it resonated with me, too. Thank you.

  7. #207
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
    i think fudgy said it somewhere above, effectively 'training is fun.' i took that to mean he finds joy in the process.

    you wrote earlier that 'winning is fun' (it seemed to me like you presented it in opposition to what he wrote). when we strip the zen from it, i take the broad meaning of what you write directly above to mean that when we distill things to their core, your point of view probably has more in common with what fudgy succinctly stated than you take exception to it.

    because one wants to be a 'better person' (faster racer?) in the future does not mean one is not good enough today. seems like we all agree on that.
    we agree.

    I train hard as hell and end my non-interval efforts in a heap on my bars listening to my heartbeat in my eyeballs. I guess that's not the traditional sense of fun, but it's fun for me.

    When I say winning isn't everything, it doesn't mean I'm not out there trying to win, or that I don't enjoy it when I take a win, I just realize that I'm into this sport for many reasons, and if I don't win I still have all the fitness, friends, etc..., that I've gained from riding my bike.

    I think you, Gsteinb, and I are probably more similar than not. We all have different phrasing and thought processes and because we're all competitive people we argue about which is right, but stripped of a little resolution, i.e. pull back to the larger training picture, I bet it begins to look the same.

    ^^ goes for anyone who's had a measure of success in racing. Racing, winning, training are all hard. But I'd still call them fun, too.

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  8. #208
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Shovel said I was wired different, whatever that actually means.
    I said I was wired differently than you. Not different. Different than me. There's a distinction there.

    You stated earlier in this or another thread that you won 7 or so races this year and expected to win 15 or so races. The numbers aren't important. The difference between you and me is that you expect to win races. I don't. I expect to be competitive. That's another one of those terms that means different things to different people, whereas winning is just plain winning. But that is how I am wired. When I get to the point where I can only be competitive a few times a year when I race in my racing age group, I'm done. It's not worth the time and dedication to compete a few times a year for a chance to win. I'd rather ride with my friends and enjoy life. The challenge for me is executing on a plan in racing where I am competitive, and the ever increasing difficulty of racing up, with guys over 15 years younger than me. That is what motivates me. I don't expect to win those races. I expect to be competitive.

    Hope this helps.

  9. #209
    Arrogant Roadie Punk save10's Avatar
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    this thread was killed like it was in the 41...way to be

  10. #210
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    I'd rather ride with my friends and enjoy life. The challenge for me is executing on a plan in racing where I am competitive
    I'm saying the exact same thing. I could ride for an elite team and be a bit player. I'd rather ride with my friends. It just so happens I'm the guy looked to to win, but it's more the circumstances than the goal.

    It's just that given five free hours I'd rather do a three hour hike with my wife and do a hard ride for 2, than a 5 hour ride. The two hour ride is more in line with what I actually need to do.
    Last edited by gsteinb; 10-19-13 at 09:43 AM.

  11. #211
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by save10 View Post
    this thread was killed like it was in the 41...way to be
    you should read more carefully.

  12. #212
    Senior Member dave42's Avatar
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    What drives us matters. This thread didn't devolve into the abyss. It went where all good conversations go. I mean in a good way...
    Last edited by dave42; 10-19-13 at 02:28 PM.

  13. #213
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I think we are having a valuable conversation. It's all how you perceive it.

  14. #214
    Arrogant Roadie Punk save10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    you should read more carefully.
    i stand by my statement.

  15. #215
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    Given that I'm very happy with my results and progress from last year, the thread is a bit of a misnomer anyway.
    I'm one of the very lucky few who have little holding me back. My work is accommodating, my wife is understanding, aside from a relatively minor crash I was pretty injury free for the meat of the season, I don't have kids or other big time commitments, and I lucked into finding the sport that I liked in a world-class region to ride and have friends with whom to do it.

    So, what is holding me back? Not much. My goals and the items I listed in the other thread are things I want to work on to keep the improvements coming. They weren't limiters in as much as they were loose clothes flapping in the wind. I am happy with where I am, but I want to tighten those things up and keep moving forward.

    Maybe I will revise
    - goal 1 - enjoy riding and appreciate it. if I can't be happy now, when will I?
    - goal 2 - finish the upgrade points, upgrade, try more crits and TTs and events to keep it fresh

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  16. #216
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Someone is channeling CDR for verbosity

    I came into this sport with the goal of seeing how well I could do. Like I have done in other things in my life I immerssed myself both physically and mentally in the process. I was completely surprised at how well I did, but not surprised I did well. If you strive for excellence with an open mind, you will find it.

    I also find winning fun. But I also like doing lead outs, putting together a technically perfect TT effort, and proving that things can be done if you have the heart and courage to try.

    Failure is nothing more than a class in how you can improve. And often so is winning. In this sport and in life.

    The misstep people make in trying to aceive goals is doing x when they want y. This happens when they either are pointed down the wrong path by others, or they fib to themselves that doing x will produce y.

  17. #217
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Someone is channeling CDR for verbosity
    slander.

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  18. #218
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Libel, actually.

  19. #219
    Senior Member dave42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Someone is channeling CDR for verbosity

    I came into this sport with the goal of seeing how well I could do. Like I have done in other things in my life I immerssed myself both physically and mentally in the process. I was completely surprised at how well I did, but not surprised I did well. If you strive for excellence with an open mind, you will find it.

    I also find winning fun. But I also like doing lead outs, putting together a technically perfect TT effort, and proving that things can be done if you have the heart and courage to try.

    Failure is nothing more than a class in how you can improve. And often so is winning. In this sport and in life.

    The misstep people make in trying to aceive goals is doing x when they want y. This happens when they either are pointed down the wrong path by others, or they fib to themselves that doing x will produce y.
    Hi, Racer Ex. I appreciate your perspective . I wonder if you could expound somewhat on your last paragraph, provide an example, or whatever.

  20. #220
    Clinging to guns/religion Ridelots24's Avatar
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    2014...
    get divorced....
    get lots of dogs...
    turn my training up to '11'..
    Cross the line in 1st place during a "C" race
    Last edited by gsteinb; 10-21-13 at 09:02 AM.

  21. #221
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Stay classy ridelots.

    Post edited to reflect a more refined sensibility.

  22. #222
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    Get a six pack
    Win 1/5 Target races
    Help teammates win another 2
    55mph downhill Palomares road

  23. #223
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    55mph on Palomares is soooo not safe. At least send someone down a minute ahead of you!

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  24. #224
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    speaking of high speed crashes, at nationals the guy right in front of me went into a tree at 63 mph. He lost an eye. Be careful out there.
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  25. #225
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Someone could lose an eye….


    For real? That's crazy.

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