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-   -   Base (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/917029-base.html)

mattm 10-09-13 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16145285)
Given the huge range in Z2 I honestly have no felt experience what you guys are going on about. There's a massive different between 105 and 145. Four hours at 105? You'd probably be better off doing 120 minutes at 160-165 and watching TV for the rest of the time.

Yeah. This is what he gets for using Strava as a training tool!

As I originally posted, z2 is more like 81%-89% of LTHR, a pretty narrow range. That's 146-161 bpm for me, at least based on what I think my LTHR is at the moment.

mattm 10-09-13 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 16145533)
At the rate he is developing he is going to rip some fields apart early next year.

Indeed. And by March/April he'll be burned out and not responding to your emails!

kensuf 10-09-13 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 16145570)
Don't forget to crossfit until your muscle cells explode.

http://www.mikesgym.org/wod/images/Uncle%20Rhabdo.jpg

gsteinb 10-09-13 08:24 AM

The truth is the vast majority of guys are never going to do anything more that 45-90 minute crits. There's a certain wisdom in training for what you actually do, at the level you're at. I have no doubt the Chris Horner, of Phil whateverthe****hisname is should be doing 6-7 hour off season rides. They're probably going to be doing a bit more than Z2 mixed in considering their season ends in the fall and starts in the winter.

rkwaki 10-09-13 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16145619)
Indeed. And by March/April he'll be burned out and not responding to your emails!

Incorrect. I have learned from friends about burnout and have planned accordingly :)
I have buddies who do 25-30 hours a week year round.

rkwaki 10-09-13 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16145636)
The truth is the vast majority of guys are never going to do anything more that 45-90 minute crits. There's a certain wisdom in training for what you actually do, at the level you're at. I have no doubt the Chris Horner, of Phil whateverthe****hisname is should be doing 6-7 hour off season rides. They're probably going to be doing a bit more than Z2 mixed in considering their season ends in the fall and starts in the winter.

In laying out an offseason plan goals are important.
Using myself as an example in the good ole days road races were all in excess of 100 miles. 4 hours in Z2 just isn't going to cut it. Like stein said you have to train to what you are going to race.

lsberrios1 10-09-13 08:37 AM

I'm not sure but base to me feels pretty darn goon on the legs. I tend to enjoy z2 rides with a few z3 efforts in between. Then again I am a noob. I did my FTP Test yesterday and let me tell you there ain't nuttin functional about that power level for that amount of time... more like disfunctional threshold power, I was about to lose control of my bowels and go delusional at T minus 4 minutes...

Ygduf 10-09-13 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16145285)
Given the huge range in Z2 I honestly have no felt experience what you guys are going on about. There's a massive different between 105 and 145. Four hours at 105? You'd probably be better off doing 120 minutes at 160-165 and watching TV for the rest of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 16145291)
It's easy to stay in Z2 if you define a huge Z2! You have defined it as a band over 20% wide (in terms of max HR). This may be correct for you, but every source I know of suggests starting with bands that are 10% wide, or less.

I have the same max HR as you but I have my Z2 defined as 125-145.

That's a new-to-me bug. My HR zones are set:
http://i.imgur.com/wFw9hYx.png

My max varies, but usually around 185. I guess it's still "wide" at 65%-77% for z2. Anyway, worked for me.

kensuf 10-09-13 09:02 AM

Your max HR doesn't vary. You vary.

Ygduf 10-09-13 09:09 AM

When I was 14 I probably hit 200HR. I should keep using that then?

Max achievable HR, I tend to update it with whatever highwater mark I hit in the past year on a relatively rested day.

ovoleg 10-09-13 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensuf (Post 16145749)
Your max HR doesn't vary. You vary.

When I was 19-22 I used to be able to hit 200 max pretty easily, at 26 I can barely hit 185. I dunno wtf happened, I blame part of it on the heart rate monitor.

I feel like I'm way faster at 185 HR than I was when I rode at 200. Trust me there have been a few moments where I went so far into the red I almost fell off the bike, and the highest I've seen is 185.

gsteinb 10-09-13 09:19 AM

holy 41 batman

kensuf 10-09-13 09:23 AM

You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf
My max varies, but usually around 185.

The bottom line is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16145784)
Max achievable HR, I tend to update it with whatever highwater mark I hit in the past year on a relatively rested day.

As for the drops in max HR over YEARS, as people age, these things change a bit. Daily variations are more related to rested state, that's why I say "you vary".

kensuf 10-09-13 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16145823)
holy 41 batman

8-)

But look at the thread title, and it's only October 9th.

Creatre 10-09-13 09:28 AM

For me personally:

I can't use HR for training because my HR varies so much depending on which phase of a block I'm on. Week 1 I may ride at 155 avg hr for a z2 ride, and Week 3 I may be at 135 avg hr for a z2 ride. Some of this is fatigue, some plasma expansion, some dehydration, etc, but either way it wouldn't be effective for me to train by it.



My $.02 on general base:

There are many phases and differentiations of base. The general idea for a lot of people is LSD. However, the general point of the base period should be just to get in a solid workload, as much as they can, at lower intensities (not necessarily z2). All other times of the year you have races, group rides, vacations, etc that all interfere with you riding schedule. How often do you get months at a time where you can devote a solid 7 days to training, especially a 2 day weekend of long rides. Without having a whole bunch of high intensity like during most other parts of the year, you can spend more time on the bike to develop endurance, without creating too much fatigue. Most people will see a significant increase of fitness during the "base" period, just by riding more. For most people, up to a point of diminishing returns, there is not better way to increase fitness than to add additional time into their schedule. It's up to the rider or the coach to determine if z1, z2, or z3 needs to be used during this time to build that endurance, based on their individual needs and training load.

For those a bit more committed to the sport and/or organized, they should have a training schedule built to their needs. I have already put my thoughts in about this in other threads. There are different ways of doing this as well, but I'll just add my thoughts on what I've seen proven year after year. Starting with the underlying endurance, or z2 mileage, as most people would consider as "base." However, after that phase, they need to keep developing off of it. Start incorporating "force" (using friel terms) workouts, either at tempo, SST, subthresold, and possibly even threshold intensities that are in addition to those z2 hours you built up to in the first phase. Often, work in the gym is associated during this time as well. This phase is much longer, as you want to keep pushing that muscular endurance high as you can, before you start having to bring in that top end work near the start of the season, which usually causes a decline in overall endurance hours and time in z3/z4, because of the increase of fatigue.

Any work you do during this time will have a significant impact on your results the rest of the season. If you truly build a great endurance base during the offseason, you will be able to develop a greater top end once you incorporate that work/those intervals, you will be able to use that top end power for a longer portion during the race (ie, not just the first hour, but all the way to the finish), you will be prepared and recover from race/intensity efforts significantly faster (ie, handle stage races or sat/sun races better), and you will lose less fitness during times off the bike or bad training weeks as that base will hold up longer and allow you to get back to that level sooner.

thechemist 10-09-13 09:51 AM

interesting tidbit on heartrate from a recent friel blog post:
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/10...ting-info.html

"
In other words, a high max HR is not a good predictor of how highly fit you are. It’s just the opposite. You want a low HR. This is especially true during aerobic exercise. The lower your HR is relative to your power or pace, the more aerobically fit you are. " -friel

I will be doing a bit more "cross training" during my base to help with calcium and bone mass. Most of my base though will be 4hr+ rides to target RR

mattm 10-09-13 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensuf (Post 16145840)
8-)

But look at the thread title, and it's only October 9th.

I'm planning on hitting San Dimas hard, which is in late March. And the racing starts in January around here. The plan for me is three months of Base starting now, two months of Build, then Peak, then Race. Maybe hitting the "Race" block a bit early but I think it'll work out.

You live in the 'Duh, you should know about early-season racing!

ovoleg 10-09-13 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16145823)
holy 41 batman

only answering teh "your max HR doesn't vary" comment haha.

I honestly don't know why I bother wearing a heart rate strap at all ever since I bought a power meter...If it's actually working(lately I've been lucky with the hard plastic strap) then its telling me I'm working hard when my power is up and I'm recovering when my power is low. Kind of interesting data but I don't use it to train, just stick to power.

About the only useful time is if I'm riding a MTB or one of my bikes that doesn't have power then it helps gauge effort to some degree.

gsteinb 10-09-13 11:22 AM

You didn't really answer though, just exposed a bunch of ignorance around being faster and max HR.

This stuff really isn't rocket science.

HR is most useful for determining recovery at a given work load.

mattm 10-09-13 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovoleg (Post 16146268)
only answering teh "your max HR doesn't vary" comment haha.

I honestly don't know why I bother wearing a heart rate strap at all ever since I bought a power meter...If it's actually working(lately I've been lucky with the hard plastic strap) then its telling me I'm working hard when my power is up and I'm recovering when my power is low. Kind of interesting data but I don't use it to train, just stick to power.

About the only useful time is if I'm riding a MTB or one of my bikes that doesn't have power then it helps gauge effort to some degree.

Have you read the (Training) Bible? Friel tells you why HR is important, especially in the Base period.

Power is good, but it's not everything.

ovoleg 10-09-13 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16146305)
Have you read the (Training) Bible? Friel tells you why HR is important, especially in the Base period.

Power is good, but it's not everything.

Yeah I read the part where he talks about determining when your base period is over as you discussed earlier in the thread. Friel also talks about how talking about HR as some indicator of performance like "my heart rate really got up quick today" was a bad way of looking at HR altogether. That one yellow section in the book was eye opening when I read it.

I haven't done base yet(didn't do it last year, was just focusing on getting back on the bike and losing 20lbs) so I have no data to go off of, but in the build+peak phase I didn't use it at all.

rkwaki 10-09-13 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16146282)

This stuff really isn't rocket science.

Hahaha ain't that the truth...

Fat Boy 10-09-13 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16145636)
The truth is the vast majority of guys are never going to do anything more that 45-90 minute crits. There's a certain wisdom in training for what you actually do, at the level you're at. I have no doubt the Chris Horner, of Phil whateverthe****hisname is should be doing 6-7 hour off season rides. They're probably going to be doing a bit more than Z2 mixed in considering their season ends in the fall and starts in the winter.

Completely. I really think that you can get _really_ fast by fully developing your aerobic systems. If you want to do the the Mark Allen training program, you'll be an animal. We can approximate real base by reducing time in the saddle and increasing (somewhat) intensity. Ultimately, as amateurs, we're all time limited. You gotta piss with the d!@* ya got.

ovoleg 10-09-13 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16146282)
You didn't really answer though, just exposed a bunch of ignorance around being faster and max HR.

This stuff really isn't rocket science.

HR is most useful for determining recovery at a given work load.

true, forgiveth me!

gsteinb 10-09-13 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkwaki (Post 16146334)
Hahaha ain't that the truth...

one of the best movie lines ever

Chris McConnell: What am I afraid of her for? She's no rocket scientist.
C.D. Bales: Well, actually, she is a rocket scientist.


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