Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 212

Thread: Base

  1. #26
    **** that mattm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CALI
    Posts
    11,280
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Given the huge range in Z2 I honestly have no felt experience what you guys are going on about. There's a massive different between 105 and 145. Four hours at 105? You'd probably be better off doing 120 minutes at 160-165 and watching TV for the rest of the time.
    Yeah. This is what he gets for using Strava as a training tool!

    As I originally posted, z2 is more like 81%-89% of LTHR, a pretty narrow range. That's 146-161 bpm for me, at least based on what I think my LTHR is at the moment.
    cat 1.

    blog

  2. #27
    **** that mattm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CALI
    Posts
    11,280
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    At the rate he is developing he is going to rip some fields apart early next year.
    Indeed. And by March/April he'll be burned out and not responding to your emails!
    cat 1.

    blog

  3. #28
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
    My Bikes
    '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey
    Posts
    9,753
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    Don't forget to crossfit until your muscle cells explode.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  4. #29
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,394
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    The truth is the vast majority of guys are never going to do anything more that 45-90 minute crits. There's a certain wisdom in training for what you actually do, at the level you're at. I have no doubt the Chris Horner, of Phil whateverthe****hisname is should be doing 6-7 hour off season rides. They're probably going to be doing a bit more than Z2 mixed in considering their season ends in the fall and starts in the winter.

  5. #30
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    getting photographed by rockets...
    Posts
    8,134
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    Indeed. And by March/April he'll be burned out and not responding to your emails!
    Incorrect. I have learned from friends about burnout and have planned accordingly
    I have buddies who do 25-30 hours a week year round.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  6. #31
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    getting photographed by rockets...
    Posts
    8,134
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    The truth is the vast majority of guys are never going to do anything more that 45-90 minute crits. There's a certain wisdom in training for what you actually do, at the level you're at. I have no doubt the Chris Horner, of Phil whateverthe****hisname is should be doing 6-7 hour off season rides. They're probably going to be doing a bit more than Z2 mixed in considering their season ends in the fall and starts in the winter.
    In laying out an offseason plan goals are important.
    Using myself as an example in the good ole days road races were all in excess of 100 miles. 4 hours in Z2 just isn't going to cut it. Like stein said you have to train to what you are going to race.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  7. #32
    Senior Member lsberrios1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Atlanta GA
    My Bikes
    '13 Spech Roubaix SL4 Expert
    Posts
    2,000
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not sure but base to me feels pretty darn goon on the legs. I tend to enjoy z2 rides with a few z3 efforts in between. Then again I am a noob. I did my FTP Test yesterday and let me tell you there ain't nuttin functional about that power level for that amount of time... more like disfunctional threshold power, I was about to lose control of my bowels and go delusional at T minus 4 minutes...
    Cat 6 going on PRO....

  8. #33
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    My Bikes
    road bikes
    Posts
    5,891
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Given the huge range in Z2 I honestly have no felt experience what you guys are going on about. There's a massive different between 105 and 145. Four hours at 105? You'd probably be better off doing 120 minutes at 160-165 and watching TV for the rest of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    It's easy to stay in Z2 if you define a huge Z2! You have defined it as a band over 20% wide (in terms of max HR). This may be correct for you, but every source I know of suggests starting with bands that are 10% wide, or less.

    I have the same max HR as you but I have my Z2 defined as 125-145.
    That's a new-to-me bug. My HR zones are set:


    My max varies, but usually around 185. I guess it's still "wide" at 65%-77% for z2. Anyway, worked for me.

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  9. #34
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
    My Bikes
    '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey
    Posts
    9,753
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Your max HR doesn't vary. You vary.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  10. #35
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    My Bikes
    road bikes
    Posts
    5,891
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When I was 14 I probably hit 200HR. I should keep using that then?

    Max achievable HR, I tend to update it with whatever highwater mark I hit in the past year on a relatively rested day.

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  11. #36
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,333
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    Your max HR doesn't vary. You vary.
    When I was 19-22 I used to be able to hit 200 max pretty easily, at 26 I can barely hit 185. I dunno wtf happened, I blame part of it on the heart rate monitor.

    I feel like I'm way faster at 185 HR than I was when I rode at 200. Trust me there have been a few moments where I went so far into the red I almost fell off the bike, and the highest I've seen is 185.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  12. #37
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,394
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    holy 41 batman

  13. #38
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
    My Bikes
    '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey
    Posts
    9,753
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf
    My max varies, but usually around 185.
    The bottom line is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Max achievable HR, I tend to update it with whatever highwater mark I hit in the past year on a relatively rested day.
    As for the drops in max HR over YEARS, as people age, these things change a bit. Daily variations are more related to rested state, that's why I say "you vary".
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  14. #39
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
    My Bikes
    '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey
    Posts
    9,753
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    holy 41 batman
    8-)

    But look at the thread title, and it's only October 9th.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  15. #40
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    3,370
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For me personally:

    I can't use HR for training because my HR varies so much depending on which phase of a block I'm on. Week 1 I may ride at 155 avg hr for a z2 ride, and Week 3 I may be at 135 avg hr for a z2 ride. Some of this is fatigue, some plasma expansion, some dehydration, etc, but either way it wouldn't be effective for me to train by it.



    My $.02 on general base:

    There are many phases and differentiations of base. The general idea for a lot of people is LSD. However, the general point of the base period should be just to get in a solid workload, as much as they can, at lower intensities (not necessarily z2). All other times of the year you have races, group rides, vacations, etc that all interfere with you riding schedule. How often do you get months at a time where you can devote a solid 7 days to training, especially a 2 day weekend of long rides. Without having a whole bunch of high intensity like during most other parts of the year, you can spend more time on the bike to develop endurance, without creating too much fatigue. Most people will see a significant increase of fitness during the "base" period, just by riding more. For most people, up to a point of diminishing returns, there is not better way to increase fitness than to add additional time into their schedule. It's up to the rider or the coach to determine if z1, z2, or z3 needs to be used during this time to build that endurance, based on their individual needs and training load.

    For those a bit more committed to the sport and/or organized, they should have a training schedule built to their needs. I have already put my thoughts in about this in other threads. There are different ways of doing this as well, but I'll just add my thoughts on what I've seen proven year after year. Starting with the underlying endurance, or z2 mileage, as most people would consider as "base." However, after that phase, they need to keep developing off of it. Start incorporating "force" (using friel terms) workouts, either at tempo, SST, subthresold, and possibly even threshold intensities that are in addition to those z2 hours you built up to in the first phase. Often, work in the gym is associated during this time as well. This phase is much longer, as you want to keep pushing that muscular endurance high as you can, before you start having to bring in that top end work near the start of the season, which usually causes a decline in overall endurance hours and time in z3/z4, because of the increase of fatigue.

    Any work you do during this time will have a significant impact on your results the rest of the season. If you truly build a great endurance base during the offseason, you will be able to develop a greater top end once you incorporate that work/those intervals, you will be able to use that top end power for a longer portion during the race (ie, not just the first hour, but all the way to the finish), you will be prepared and recover from race/intensity efforts significantly faster (ie, handle stage races or sat/sun races better), and you will lose less fitness during times off the bike or bad training weeks as that base will hold up longer and allow you to get back to that level sooner.
    Category 2 | | Velogames BikeForums Leagues: 1st - 2012 Veulta, 1st - 2011 Vuelta, 2nd - 2013 Vuelta, 3rd - 2012 Giro, 4th - 2012 TdF

  16. #41
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    1,661
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    interesting tidbit on heartrate from a recent friel blog post:
    http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/10...ting-info.html

    "
    In other words, a high max HR is not a good predictor of how highly fit you are. It’s just the opposite. You want a low HR. This is especially true during aerobic exercise. The lower your HR is relative to your power or pace, the more aerobically fit you are. " -friel

    I will be doing a bit more "cross training" during my base to help with calcium and bone mass. Most of my base though will be 4hr+ rides to target RR

  17. #42
    **** that mattm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CALI
    Posts
    11,280
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    8-)

    But look at the thread title, and it's only October 9th.
    I'm planning on hitting San Dimas hard, which is in late March. And the racing starts in January around here. The plan for me is three months of Base starting now, two months of Build, then Peak, then Race. Maybe hitting the "Race" block a bit early but I think it'll work out.

    You live in the 'Duh, you should know about early-season racing!
    cat 1.

    blog

  18. #43
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,333
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    holy 41 batman
    only answering teh "your max HR doesn't vary" comment haha.

    I honestly don't know why I bother wearing a heart rate strap at all ever since I bought a power meter...If it's actually working(lately I've been lucky with the hard plastic strap) then its telling me I'm working hard when my power is up and I'm recovering when my power is low. Kind of interesting data but I don't use it to train, just stick to power.

    About the only useful time is if I'm riding a MTB or one of my bikes that doesn't have power then it helps gauge effort to some degree.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  19. #44
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,394
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    You didn't really answer though, just exposed a bunch of ignorance around being faster and max HR.

    This stuff really isn't rocket science.

    HR is most useful for determining recovery at a given work load.

  20. #45
    **** that mattm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CALI
    Posts
    11,280
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    only answering teh "your max HR doesn't vary" comment haha.

    I honestly don't know why I bother wearing a heart rate strap at all ever since I bought a power meter...If it's actually working(lately I've been lucky with the hard plastic strap) then its telling me I'm working hard when my power is up and I'm recovering when my power is low. Kind of interesting data but I don't use it to train, just stick to power.

    About the only useful time is if I'm riding a MTB or one of my bikes that doesn't have power then it helps gauge effort to some degree.
    Have you read the (Training) Bible? Friel tells you why HR is important, especially in the Base period.

    Power is good, but it's not everything.
    cat 1.

    blog

  21. #46
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,333
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    Have you read the (Training) Bible? Friel tells you why HR is important, especially in the Base period.

    Power is good, but it's not everything.
    Yeah I read the part where he talks about determining when your base period is over as you discussed earlier in the thread. Friel also talks about how talking about HR as some indicator of performance like "my heart rate really got up quick today" was a bad way of looking at HR altogether. That one yellow section in the book was eye opening when I read it.

    I haven't done base yet(didn't do it last year, was just focusing on getting back on the bike and losing 20lbs) so I have no data to go off of, but in the build+peak phase I didn't use it at all.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  22. #47
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    getting photographed by rockets...
    Posts
    8,134
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post

    This stuff really isn't rocket science.
    Hahaha ain't that the truth...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  23. #48
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    6,159
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    The truth is the vast majority of guys are never going to do anything more that 45-90 minute crits. There's a certain wisdom in training for what you actually do, at the level you're at. I have no doubt the Chris Horner, of Phil whateverthe****hisname is should be doing 6-7 hour off season rides. They're probably going to be doing a bit more than Z2 mixed in considering their season ends in the fall and starts in the winter.
    Completely. I really think that you can get _really_ fast by fully developing your aerobic systems. If you want to do the the Mark Allen training program, you'll be an animal. We can approximate real base by reducing time in the saddle and increasing (somewhat) intensity. Ultimately, as amateurs, we're all time limited. You gotta piss with the d!@* ya got.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  24. #49
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,333
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You didn't really answer though, just exposed a bunch of ignorance around being faster and max HR.

    This stuff really isn't rocket science.

    HR is most useful for determining recovery at a given work load.
    true, forgiveth me!
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  25. #50
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,394
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    Hahaha ain't that the truth...
    one of the best movie lines ever

    Chris McConnell: What am I afraid of her for? She's no rocket scientist.
    C.D. Bales: Well, actually, she is a rocket scientist.

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •