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-   -   Base (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/917029-base.html)

kensuf 10-09-13 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechemist (Post 16145949)
interesting tidbit on heartrate from a recent friel blog post:
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/10...ting-info.html

"
In other words, a high max HR is not a good predictor of how highly fit you are. It’s just the opposite. You want a low HR. This is especially true during aerobic exercise. The lower your HR is relative to your power or pace, the more aerobically fit you are. " -friel

I will be doing a bit more "cross training" during my base to help with calcium and bone mass. Most of my base though will be 4hr+ rides to target RR

The first part of your chosen quote in that post is overly simplified to the point of being nonsensical. You can put two world class athletes at peak fitness next to each other and get two completely different results for their max HR (and work zones). Max HR is unique to each individual, and is just that, a max. The problem is, to truly hit that max you must be rested going into it and then pushing yourself so hard your guts are turning inside out and blood is pouring from your ears -- it takes a lot of motivation to hit that max.

Power at HR is what is important in gauging fitness -- the more watts you can push at a lower HR = the more fit you are. Additionally, the speed with which your HR recovers from a hard effort is another good gauge.

Racer Ex 10-09-13 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creatre (Post 16145863)
Any work you do during this time will have a significant impact on your results the rest of the season.

Depends. I went from a CTL of 50 (little to no base that year) after moving across the country to a silver at Masters Nats in the TT in 7 weeks, places 1-4 were all former or current nat'l champs. Those 7 weeks were totally focused on that one event. Specificity>base.

It's not uncommon to see too much "base" in people, more isn't always better just as the Ewang is a lousy indicator of racing success in most cases.

A lot of the current dogma out there ignores the reality of individualized response, which is the key and the mystery to getting the most out of each athlete.

The only dogma that I've found to hold true is the concept of progressive workload followed by rest. That will get you to the beach, how you plan on getting across the ocean is another question altogether.

Grumpy McTrumpy 10-09-13 03:06 PM

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3485320188855

you have to watch until the end to see why it's relevant.

Racer Ex 10-09-13 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy (Post 16146951)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3485320188855

you have to watch until the end to see why it's relevant.

Don't skip through or it won't make sense.

Grumpy McTrumpy 10-09-13 03:15 PM

that too

gsteinb 10-09-13 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16146972)
Don't skip through or it won't make sense.

oh. I just figured Grumpy finally went fully around the bend

globecanvas 10-09-13 03:57 PM

Dammit Smithers, this isn't rocket science! It's brain surgery. Hand me that ice cream scoop.

ljrichar 10-10-13 07:33 AM

That is the best Chris Farley skit that I have ever seen.

rankin116 10-10-13 07:37 AM

1 Attachment(s)
A thread about base and it's taken this long for someone to post this?

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=345260

Hermes 10-10-13 09:33 AM


mattm 10-10-13 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy (Post 16146951)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3485320188855

you have to watch until the end to see why it's relevant.

wtf

TMonk 10-10-13 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rankin116 (Post 16148693)
A thread about base and it's taken this long for someone to post this?

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=345260

lawl was just about to post this

spectastic 10-13-13 03:22 AM

offseason training
 
I'm not racing cross, and I have to complete my grad school app shenanigan, so I'll be off the bike a LOT. Any suggestions on a good type of routine to stick by to stay in cycling shape and hit the ground running once I start training seriously for next season? I would like to do well from the get go as a cat 4. I found these interval workouts

http://www.cptips.com/intervl.htm
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nu...-and-endurance

Should I stick to high intensity intervals? They seem to be the most time effective workout for cycling.

revchuck 10-13-13 06:02 AM

I'd get a copy of Base Building for Cyclists to start with, and also The Cyclist's Training Bible if you don't already have it. Base Building is based on the the Training Bible, but Chapple does a better job of explaining Friel than Friel does. The theory is to build a good aerobic base first, then add the intensity later. Pick out your priority race and back plan from there. Racing season starts in mid-February in east TX, so now is a good time to do it.

topflightpro 10-13-13 06:53 AM

There's a whole thread on base training just a few posts down. Read that.

carpediemracing 10-13-13 06:59 AM

Personally I have a hard time doing intervals. It started when I did them through an off season and within about 8-10 years I couldn't even do them regularly during the season. I learned the hard way that pushing extremely hard through the winter wasn't conducive towards a good season.

In the winter it's about building the broadest base possible, working on becoming fluent on the bike. Long rides to force the lesser muscles to come into play, honing or experimenting with position, those are the things I've focused on.

"Training time efficiency" in the off season isn't necessarily critical in terms of training (meaning it may be important relative to the rest of your life but that's a different topic).

I'm not versed in training lingo but you don't want to be doing high intensity, short workouts throughout the winter. If you're like most people I know you'll probably be burnt out by April. Training isn't a graph where your fitness just keeps going up and up. It cycles up and down, rising a lot at the beginning of your cycling life, not as much later, and finally plateauing at whatever genetic ceiling you have (based on training etc). You can fill in that graph a bit better (so you can work on short bursts of power, mid-range efforts, endurance rate) but your ceiling numbers won't change much.

On the other hand I should point out that for 10 years (after not doing intervals) I only took about 2 weeks off a year, usually because I had strep or something. I did a couple hard rides a week throughout the year, pushed hard when I felt fresh regardless of the time of year, and I have a pretty solid (for me) 10 years of racing.

One year my "couple hard rides a week" consisted of essentially the same route - 120 or so miles with 5 or 6 very hard climbs at the turnaround town/county. I rode with a teammate and we shared a common goal for the following year - we were committed to a 3 week trip to race in Belgium in the early spring. Wednesdays and Sundays for 3 or 4 months. I had my best year the following season although we got our butts kicked in Belgium. I was super strong, I raced hard from March to November, and after that last November race I was dying to do more races. Mentally I was fresh, even after a long season. I attribute that to the low number of forced efforts I made (riding hard enough not to topple over is easier than pushing hard on an interval) and the super broad base I built over the winter.

merlinextraligh 10-13-13 03:38 PM

I'm running and lifting for the month of October, and riding if I feel Ike it on the weekends.

Change of pace, time efficient, and don't have to worry about daylight.

Structured riding starts again Nov 1, but our season starts early here.

gsteinb 10-13-13 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsteinb (Post 16145530)
I can promise you there will be only one

qft

rankin116 10-13-13 08:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=345910

mattm 10-15-13 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16146927)
Depends. I went from a CTL of 50 (little to no base that year) after moving across the country to a silver at Masters Nats in the TT in 7 weeks, places 1-4 were all former or current nat'l champs. Those 7 weeks were totally focused on that one event. Specificity>base.

It's not uncommon to see too much "base" in people, more isn't always better just as the Ewang is a lousy indicator of racing success in most cases.

A lot of the current dogma out there ignores the reality of individualized response, which is the key and the mystery to getting the most out of each athlete.

The only dogma that I've found to hold true is the concept of progressive workload followed by rest. That will get you to the beach, how you plan on getting across the ocean is another question altogether.

Some good points. I'm guessing Friel's thinking is that of all the people he's coached, most of them showed the best improvements with a good Base. So yeah it won't work for everyone, but for most.

And with more experience, people will figure out what works best for them.

mattm 10-15-13 11:49 AM

A question for all the z2-ers out there. When you do "two hours of z2", what actual % is really in z2?

From looking at WKO I'm always surprised to see that it's 40% or so of the total time, if I'm lucky. Is anyone really sticking in z2 for 75%+ of their training time?

hack 10-15-13 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16162863)
A question for all the z2-ers out there. When you do "two hours of z2", what actual % is really in z2?

From looking at WKO I'm always surprised to see that it's 40% or so of the total time, if I'm lucky. Is anyone really sticking in z2 for 75%+ of their training time?

Well, I've only done one day of Z2 base training, but I managed to stick in Z2 for 75%+. I was very focused on the HR reading and adjusted effort if I neared either the upper or lower end of the zone. Made for a pretty unpleasant ride to be honest.

Ygduf 10-15-13 12:15 PM

longer rides = more z2% just for lack of stoplights and junk miles at the start and finish.

Our team training camp last year was z2 country roads out the door and I did 90+% over 4 hours. But that's no stoplights, rolling bottle hand-ups, etc. Totally ideal conditions.

I did that z2 commute from work the other day and it was 82% z2, HR not power. HR changes slower so it's easier to maintain a zone, of course.

mattm 10-15-13 12:23 PM

Ah yeah I meant power. Of course it's highly variable, every downhill "screws up" my numbers!

I know it doesn't really matter, "zone 2" riding is mostly about not hanging out in zone 3+ or zone 1 for too long.

lsberrios1 10-15-13 01:42 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16162933)
Ah yeah I meant power. Of course it's highly variable, every downhill "screws up" my numbers!

I know it doesn't really matter, "zone 2" riding is mostly about not hanging out in zone 3+ or zone 1 for too long.

Yes, from what I can see zone 2 is your final power number without digging too much into the other zones. Much easier to keep z2 on HR than on PM. However I think it can be learnt to fine tune your pedaling (perceived effort) to keep yourself in zone 2 for most of the time. My garmin Is always showing me 3 second power and 30 second power. I try to keep the 30 second power within the z2 range and never go either too low or too high.

I love looking at the final charts! This was a z2 day with 2 z4 20 minute intervals one of them interrupted by a really long red light. The power is bumpy but my HR is smooth and shows well.


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