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Creatre 10-15-13 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hack (Post 16162894)
Well, I've only done one day of Z2 base training, but I managed to stick in Z2 for 75%+. I was very focused on the HR reading and adjusted effort if I neared either the upper or lower end of the zone. Made for a pretty unpleasant ride to be honest.

71% on Sunday. Only 16 seconds spent above 315w. Though to be fair I'm still coming off 3 weeks off the bike, so power is a bit low. I tend to usually be split between z2/z3 according to the zones. But mostly because of being in the very very low part of z3 because it's such a large zone, which kinda skews the numbers.

jbroadway 11-08-13 10:19 AM

85% in Z2(HR) yesterday. I can only squeeze in 2 hours after work with the time change, slept like a baby though.

jbroadway 11-08-13 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovoleg (Post 16146332)
I haven't done base yet(didn't do it last year, was just focusing on getting back on the bike and losing 20lbs) so I have no data to go off of, but in the build+peak phase I didn't use it at all.


I'd bet your getting back on the bike and losing 20 pounds (good job BTW) was A LOT of base riding...

ovoleg 11-08-13 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbroadway (Post 16229913)
I'd bet your getting back on the bike and losing 20 pounds (good job BTW) was A LOT of base riding...

thanks! I did it mostly by cutting calories and staying on the bike everyday, I actualy got down to 168(race weight) from 205(fatty weight in December). I could barely ride 120 miles a week because it was so COOOOLD in Ohio

Racer Ex 11-08-13 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16162863)
From looking at WKO I'm always surprised to see that it's 40% or so of the total time, if I'm lucky. Is anyone really sticking in z2 for 75%+ of their training time?

I'm not sure why folks think plodding along in Z2 is productive base training.

jbroadway 11-08-13 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16229975)
I'm not sure why folks think plodding along in Z2 is productive base training.

People much smarter than me said so. I've been reading the Chapple book Base Building for Cyclists, mostly because I'm reluctant to give Friel or Carmichael a fair shot (I'm a jerk). I won't explain it well, so I won't explain it. I just know that it makes sense and I'm giving it a try. BTW, in my Z2 ride yesterday, i plodded along at an avg pace of 19 mph. I know, I know, avg. speed means nothing to most of you BUT when my continued "base" training in Z2 eventually allows my avg. speed to creep up I'll know I have a good fitness base, (read: more endurance, if you will) and that's what I have pinpointed as a weakness.

That book is written for guys like you and me, Racer Ex. I used to think the same way but for now I am changing my process until I have given it a fair trial.

Ygduf 11-08-13 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16229975)
I'm not sure why folks think plodding along in Z2 is productive base training.

what do you like to do, or consider "base"?

I did the z2forever "base" model last year and came into the season barely able to hang on to a 100-man peloton. After 6 weeks of having my ass kicked, I finally had the VO2 to start racing. This year I am "not changing much" from my usual summer riding, just a small reduction in volume/intensity, but otherwise keeping fitness "up".

waterrockets 11-08-13 11:10 AM

For me base is in that 75-85% FTP kind of power range. Fairly steady most of the time. Intensity is low enough that I can crank out the same workout day after day for 5 or 6 days, and not really feel I need a recovery (still take days off though). I guess that for me, it's half a notch easier than the old "SST" workout. I still feel the rides in my legs when I get off the bike, but never feel them a couple hours later.

I mix it up though, as my ride yesterday with a teammate was trading pulls at threshold. NP and AP still came in that 75-85% range, and the pulls were never more than a minute. Don't have an HRM, but breathing was easy, and the ride felt relaxed. Conversation was not a challenge other than the fact that we were drafting each other.

I also maintain training blocks of 3 weeks on and 1 week off. The off week is just a few rides, that are shorter, but probably about base intensity. Same recovery weeks for build and specificity too.

I guess if the first build phases are threshold intervals, my base is just the next step below that intensity.

Racer Ex 11-08-13 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbroadway (Post 16230034)
That book is written for guys like you and me, Racer Ex.

I'm not mentioned in the forward.

Most of the books in question are written for a generic, somewhat experienced elite-age kid who's going to be doing long road and stage races with an "A" race block in mind and a half dozen or so other assumptions including a lot of training time available. That might be you, I dunno. Not me though.

I'd suggest speed's a wobbly metric to judge much of anything regarding fitness or training.

What I consider "base" for myself is not the same as what I might have other people do depending on their goals and level of fitness, or even the same for me from season to season. But "only" Z2 wouldn't be in any of those workouts.

Ygduf 11-08-13 11:38 AM

yet another attempt for free coaching shot down.

Racer Ex 11-08-13 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16230137)
yet another attempt for free coaching shot down.

Yeah, I didn't pick up on that ;)

WR's program would be a bit more the norm, but there would still be a fair bit of nuance and other things in there.

Brian Ratliff 11-08-13 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16230052)
...

I did the z2forever "base" model last year and came into the season barely able to hang on to a 100-man peloton. After 6 weeks of having my ass kicked, I finally had the VO2 to start racing. This year I am "not changing much" from my usual summer riding, just a small reduction in volume/intensity, but otherwise keeping fitness "up".

Another point to consider: Anaerobic has never been a problem with me. For a couple years I did the "z2 forever" model of off-season training, and they were the best road racing years I've had. Then I found that even at a relatively lean (for me) 170lbs I couldn't stay with the front of the field on long climbs (most road races in Oregon require hill climbing ability) and moved over to track where my anaerobic tendencies pay off a bit better.

My point is the "z2 forever" model might work significantly better for anaerobic oriented people than for slow twitchers. For me, once I have aerobic fitness, VO2max and threshold are just not a problem.

thechemist 11-08-13 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16230118)
I'm not mentioned in the forward.

Most of the books in question are written for a generic, somewhat experienced elite-age kid who's going to be doing long road and stage races with an "A" race block in mind and a half dozen or so other assumptions including a lot of training time available. That might be you, I dunno. Not me though.

I'd suggest speed's a wobbly metric to judge much of anything regarding fitness or training.

What I consider "base" for myself is not the same as what I might have other people do depending on their goals and level of fitness, or even the same for me from season to season. But "only" Z2 wouldn't be in any of those workouts.


This is why I will be getting a coach...someday

rankin116 11-08-13 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechemist (Post 16230210)
This is why I will be getting a coach...someday

Me too. I'm struggling with my offseason plans. This was my first year racing, and I'm hooked. I want to maximize my time and push myself, but I don't really know what I'm doing training wise, but I just can't afford to get a coach right now. I think this coming season I'll come up with a loose training plan on my own and hopefully get some pointers from forum members about refinements. I think most people here are helpful and certainly know more than I do about training.

rkwaki 11-08-13 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechemist (Post 16230210)
This is why I will be getting a coach...someday

You're going to come do hill repeats with me one day and hire me at the end....

echappist 11-08-13 12:41 PM

fatso, can you even do 4.5 w/kg on a climb these days? i heard that you are like Ted not only in spirit but also in form :p

jbroadway 11-08-13 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16230118)
I'm not mentioned in the forward.

Most of the books in question are written for a generic, somewhat experienced elite-age kid who's going to be doing long road and stage races with an "A" race block in mind and a half dozen or so other assumptions including a lot of training time available. That might be you, I dunno. Not me though.

I'd suggest speed's a wobbly metric to judge much of anything regarding fitness or training.

What I consider "base" for myself is not the same as what I might have other people do depending on their goals and level of fitness, or even the same for me from season to season. But "only" Z2 wouldn't be in any of those workouts.


I thought that too. Then I read the book. Speed may not be the greatest thing to measure but it sure is nice to have more speed than the next guy, but only if you have the endurance to hold it.

So what is your "base" training like? I'm not saying its wrong but I'm interested.

echappist 11-08-13 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16230137)
yet another attempt for free coaching shot down.

RX has doled out quite a bit of sage wisdom over the years. In most cases though, they were like pearls cast to swains as people paid them no heed.

echappist 11-08-13 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbroadway (Post 16230336)
I thought that too. Then I read the book. Speed may not be the greatest thing to measure but it sure is nice to have more speed than the next guy, but only if you have the endurance to hold it.

So what is your "base" training like? I'm not saying its wrong but I'm interested.

what happens when the temperature is 30 degrees colder and there's a lot of crosswind blowing?

what is his base training like? well, a few people here would have issues if he told you about his base training in a public post.

rkwaki 11-08-13 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by echappist (Post 16230326)
fatso, can you even do 4.5 w/kg on a climb these days? i heard that you are like Ted not only in spirit but also in form :p

Let's calculate:
I was 235 on the scale downstairs = 106.88 kilos
To do 4.5 w/kg = 480.68 watts
My hill repeat climb is ~.5 miles
Bettya I can do 5 (534 for .5 miles)?
Wager?

mattm 11-08-13 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16229975)
I'm not sure why folks think plodding along in Z2 is productive base training.

Actually I don't think anyone has said that.

Friel's book says that "Base" periods include not only Endurance/z2 work, but Speed Skills and Force training.

What I was asking was when you're doing z2 rides (which is not all the time!), what's the breakdown.

echappist 11-08-13 12:51 PM

unless the hill is 11%, a 0.5 mile "climb" is a speed bump. 20+ min climbs, fatso rotundo!

rkwaki 11-08-13 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by echappist (Post 16230357)
unless the hill is 11%, a 0.5 mile "climb" is a speed bump. 20+ min climbs, fatso rotundo!

It's about 10-11% :)

Ygduf 11-08-13 01:06 PM

strava segment?

and what's the bet, lose and you get naked, win and you both get naked?!

mattm 11-08-13 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16230384)
strava segment?

41. =]


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