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  1. #176
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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  2. #177
    . botto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    someone didn't teach you about false equivalency.

    In case you forgot, here's one of the many things he said




    I could pull up more of his ad hominem posts on you, but i think you get the point

    btw, here's how I responded


    There's nothing equivalent here. In case you can't see through it, allow me: your situation is that of a man more than twice your age lambasting and taunting you despite the pleas from others. Almost like a hazing ritual of as if a hazing ritual is necessary to join an internet forum. The taunts got very personal, and
    he often played armchair psychologist

    -----

    The present situation is one where more than a few people are tired of seeing fudgy argue for argument's sake, or as he puts it, pointing out the small inconsistencies and playing the devil's advocate. The back-and-forth may be pedantic, but Teton is not browbeating fudgy, teton is not playing armchair shrink, teton is not putting in ad hominem attacks. hell, teton isn't even alone in his view (though plurality of people doesn't mean anything, per se), whereas our resident clog was the only person to keep on piling on the unwarranted taunts. The dynamics and the facts of the situation are different, and if you want to support fudgy, at least be honest enough with yourself to see the difference.

    Anyways, i'm outta here. Gotta get a ride going and shred my legs with big gear work.
    self righteous hypocrisy is hilarious.

  3. #178
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    I posted a total of three times before the current post: a jpeg, the post above, and a third unrelated post. Nowhere did i try to go Freudian or pull out the DSM. If you think i said anything about anyone's mental state or if you have issues with the characterization, PM me directly.
    Last edited by echappist; 10-24-13 at 08:44 AM.

  4. #179
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Actually, if you quote a post it dumps the prior quotes.

  5. #180
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    opps. I forgot that. Post amended.

  6. #181
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    This was put on Twitter last night by a very successful coach in another sport (Scott Abel - Bodybuilding/Fitness Coach):
    Immature Coaches, in this industry, think everything is about client performance and therefore this kind of Coach is more concerned with how a client makes him/her look as a Coach. This is selfish of course. Mature Coaches realize that client high-performance cannot be the ALWAYS bottom-line goal with nothing in-between. That is not real-life and no client wants to feel like they live on a hamster wheel or are subject to a Coach’s approval or disapproval for “performance.”

    Mature Coaches realize that effective client performance doesn’t come from position, power, or dictations of the Coach! Client performance is better insured without a ‘*** to the head’ sense of pressure. And it is better insured by thinking of the client in terms of “progress” not “performance.” Real Coaching engages client performance and progress from a place of human values (not just performance criterion) and the Mature Coach has regards for the client that are real and genuine and supportive of the client – from the client’s level of understanding – not the coach’s notion of his/her own reputation! Rant over
    That seems similar to the education thread. Doing just the workouts without knowing why is rote memorization, understanding why and building a foundation of thought and practice is actual education and coaching.

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  7. #182
    . botto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    I posted a total of three times before the current post: a jpeg, the post above, and a third unrelated post. Nowhere did i try to go Freudian or pull out the DSM. If you think i said anything about anyone's mental state or if you have issues with the characterization, PM me directly.
    you're not worth the effort.

  8. #183
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Have to admit I'm a little relieved to see people are able to talk past each other, bicker, and be mean without me. I was beginning to think I was the problem there.

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  9. #184
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Nah, I'm a handful points away. Like a win or a couple 3-4-5ths. usac 321408, you can look at the trend, but that was all racing alone. I'm hoping with a more active team I can be more productive earlier next year.
    are the fields generally that small near San Fran(<50 dudes) or is that just for road races? Just curious.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  10. #185
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    are the fields generally that small near San Fran(<50 dudes) or is that just for road races? Just curious.
    It depends on the race and category. Cat 5s are limited to 50. Flatter road races have large fields. And there are certain popular crits that fill up. In general, racing is down in the NCNCA district.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #186
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    are the fields generally that small near San Fran(<50 dudes) or is that just for road races? Just curious.
    Nope. Early season stuff sells out, regardless. CCCX goes way up and down based on other events those weekends. Stuff like Boonville where you get 8000ft in 65mi _and_ have to drive 2 hours to get there it'll be small.

    If you look at say, Patterson or Hamilton the 4s fields are bigger. When people upgrade to 3s and suddenly realize they have no chance in a race like that they don't come out in as big of numbers.

    It's a mixed bag, small field = less drafting and it's advantageous to me in re: threshold, but small fields also tend to have selected as people who feel they can win. E.g. Fremont Peak, NCNCA hill-climb championships w/40-minute climb had fields you could mostly count on one hand.

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  12. #187
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    It depends on the race and category. Cat 5s are limited to 50. Flatter road races have large fields. And there are certain popular crits that fill up. In general, racing is down in the NCNCA district.
    Is that true broadly? I felt like Bariani and Snelling were huge this year. But late-season stuff did seem smaller for sure.

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  13. #188
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, yes. Bariani and Snelling are easier races i.e. not much climbing. Racing participation was better this year at the track than last year but still needs more racer participation to keep both racers and promoters interested.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #189
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    If you look at say, Patterson or Hamilton the 4s fields are bigger. When people upgrade to 3s and suddenly realize they have no chance in a race like that they don't come out in as big of numbers.
    I believe you, but wtf is wrong with people? Learn, support your teammates, surprise yourself, maybe even be a bike racer?

  15. #190
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Ah ok just curious. Nothing ever sold out in Ohio when I was there, at least not the cat4/5 stuff. Just curious, but are the crit fields limited in size too? I am looking on USAC for last year's races and there are fields with like 100 dudes, ugh.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    That seems similar to the education thread. Doing just the workouts without knowing why is rote memorization, understanding why and building a foundation of thought and practice is actual education and coaching.
    you state "understanding why and building a foundation of thought [in an athlete]" is a pillar of "actual coaching" as if it is a fact. it is not. it makes me think you read what rkwaki posted and either didn't understand it or applied it to fit your own needs. if YOU were a coached athlete, YOU might need the coach to explain workouts to be engaged.

    good coaching is about understanding the athlete. this is a soft skill that, quite frankly, gets missed when people think all coaching is is setting zones, reading power/HR data, and inventing intervals. some athletes may want/need to understand the 'why' of every workout in order to be most engaged and progress toward goals. other athletes -- many in fact -- want a coach so they can be removed from those details: they evaluate the coach's abilities as best they can, make a decision to entrust their training to him or her, then follow through with the workouts. hybrid scenarios exist, too.

    the right answer is whatever keeps the athlete's progress at the forefront and reduces the coach's ego to a minimum. a good coach has the ability to adapt as the specific client scenario dictates, or perhaps more appropriate a good client-athlete relationship matches strengths and needs. if a client doesn't need the education, the best coach for him or her may not have to be any good at providing it.

    some great athletes understand the theory behind the training; other great athletes know nothing of it. the latter can be achieved without the athlete turning into a hamster on the wheel in the coach's science experiment…. which gets right back to the mature coaches referenced in rk's post.

  17. #192
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I believe you, but wtf is wrong with people?
    It's part of the burnout cycle right? Those races feature a 70 minute climb and 3 laps of a 20 minute climb. If you're out of contention 5 miles into a 70 mile race, I don't imagine it's much fun.

    I'm glad Hermes said it, but participation is bigger at the races which are more likely to come down to a large group sprint. I don't fault guys for that. They want to have fun for the whole race.

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  18. #193
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    It's part of the burnout cycle right? Those races feature a 70 minute climb and 3 laps of a 20 minute climb. If you're out of contention 5 miles into a 70 mile race, I don't imagine it's much fun.

    I'm glad Hermes said it, but participation is bigger at the races which are more likely to come down to a large group sprint. I don't fault guys for that. They want to have fun for the whole race.
    At that point I'll start doing intervals haha. Dang that must suck hard to get dropped so early.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  19. #194
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    At that point I'll start doing intervals haha. Dang that must suck hard to get dropped so early.
    I flatted at Mt. Hamilton last year and rode the last 20 miles alone. It sucked.

    There's definitely a contingent of people newer in the 4s who do a race to experience it, but then decide it's not their type of race. I did well at Copperopolis last year in the 3s, but I don't know that I will do it this year. Despite a good result, it's 4+ hours of terrible roads and 4 laps on a near-death descent, I can't say that I "enjoyed" any part of it except getting the t-shirt and going home.

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  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    Ah ok just curious. Nothing ever sold out in Ohio when I was there, at least not the cat4/5 stuff. Just curious, but are the crit fields limited in size too? I am looking on USAC for last year's races and there are fields with like 100 dudes, ugh.
    You should read the USAC rulebook, in all seriousness. One of the basic rules is Cat 5s are limited to 50 racers. If there's a mix with 5s (Cat 4-5s) then the limit goes up to 75. This is regardless of whether it's a crit, RR, etc.

    Keep in mind that these rules apply only for USAC. If it is not USAC permitted/sanctioned then the rule book goes out the window. One of the things that I've seen done is promoters go outside of USAC so they can increase the 50 rider field limit for Cat 5s.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  21. #196
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    I can't imagine who you're talking about.

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Those races feature a 70 minute climb and 3 laps of a 20 minute climb. If you're out of contention 5 miles into a 70 mile race, I don't imagine it's much fun
    I think this is true at the higher categories, like 2s, 1s. I think that in the 4s and 5s there's still this "I just want to give it a shot" kind of mentality. There's some of it in the 3s, but many racers by then are jaded and prefer to be more than just pack fodder. This means you get overly optimistic racers as well as very strong ones. In the 4s and 5s you'll see racers of all levels entering because just checking off "I did that race" is enough of a reward.

    I've entered road races knowing that I have no chance (as a 3... as a 4 I thought I had a chance even though I didn't), usually to try and set up a teammate until I'm cooked. I tell people I view the rest of the race as a training ride with marshals at the corners. I placed 6th in one of them when they picked my number at the finish. I'd left the race after 11 of 55 miles and was probably 2 hours away when the race finished, but that's a minor detail.

    I stopped entering them 15 years ago, for various reasons, the main one being that I had no teammates that could climb or the races required too long a commitment (stage races) from me. My last excuse was that I was working the race so I couldn't race it.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  23. #198
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    They want to have fun for the whole race.
    There's is nothing fun about about Dunnigan Hills.

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I can't imagine who you're talking about.
    There was a promoter who was letting 5's in the 50+ down here.

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I believe you, but wtf is wrong with people? Learn, support your teammates, surprise yourself, maybe even be a bike racer?
    there's only so much you can do that is of any value at certain races. there are some races i dont do because they're >2 hrs. away, i'll be dropped 10 minutes in, and then have to drive >2 hrs. to get home. it's a day away from family for a negative experience where I'm not useful to teammates, so it amounts to a waste of one of those "away for race day" credits i need to build up.

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