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  1. #26
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Sprinting is not what Fudgy is really after if I read his post right. If I am mistaken, apologies. But what he seemed to be after was separation, which is a bit of a different animal because by definition in can't be a maximal effort. Really two different skill set with pretty different tactical considerations and physical requirements.
    Maybe it's just me, but I can do a dozen 100% 5" efforts, and they don't feel tiring at all. That's not how I always get separation or anything, but I've been able to attack 100% for that first 5", then start pacing for a longer break. That's a pretty guaranteed separation unless we're in the final kilo, but there are obviously more efficient ways to get separation most of the time.

  2. #27
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    @Matt - clarify if you are looking for separation or final sprint.
    Workouts can be specific for both but would be variable.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  3. #28
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Sprinting is not what Fudgy is really after if I read his post right. If I am mistaken, apologies. But what he seemed to be after was separation, which is a bit of a different animal because by definition in can't be a maximal effort. Really two different skill set with pretty different tactical considerations and physical requirements.
    Erm. Separation is kind of a skill and I worked that this year. Start a little farther back and have a greater dV relative to the leader when I go past. Where I find my legs weak is if I'm in 2nd or 3rd wheel and 1 or 2 or someone alongside jumps hard, it takes me longer than I feel it should to get back up to their wheel. My power to weight in that situation = slow acceleration, even if my reaction time is good.

    But thanks all for the tips. I will add in gym/strength work this year. Carving out 1/2 hour 3x/week to go turn my legs to jelly should, if nothing else, help with muscle recruitment and give me some noob gains with strength. If it carries over to the bike great, if not, I can say I tried.

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  4. #29
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Just curious how the strength building woks in terms of keeping a good body mass balance for competitive cycling. If you spend a decent amount of time in the gym, you'll gain strength and likely help improve your sprint. However, does this adversely affect the ability to climb?

    Not to totally hijack, but I started cycling this year and my history of athletics goes from distance running from 1994-2008ish to a lot of exclusive strength training from 2009-2013. My body mass increased about 30 pounds during those 4 years. Since beginning cycling earlier this year I've dropped about 20 pounds, but still carry 195lbs at 6'3". I fear that if I resume strength training over the winter, I'll get dropped trying to climb a highway overpass as I currently struggle in the hills as it is. I'm a cat 4 and can hang around and be part of the pack sprint in cat 3/4 races if its flat (crits and road up to 75m), but add some hills and I'm off the back pretty quick.

    I've been told I am a sprinter by a few folks that I ride with (I'd say I'm a slow one of that) and will likely focus on flatter crits and road races next year because of my hill struggles. I'd like to enhance the sprinting ability, but not at the cost of not being able to be in contention at the end of a race. So, I'm thinking one or two days with weights (squats, deads, cleans, etc) and focus more of my time on the bike.

    I guess not really a direct question in there, but maybe more confirmation of my rationale???

  5. #30
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    I'll try though I know CDR has some good stuff on this.
    You have flat out speed sprinters, Cavendish for example, he needs a fast leadout and then pulls through as the last man with flat out speed and equally impressive jump, though it is truly only a couple hundred meters at best.
    You have those that have a violent jump (stein for example) and is very hard to counter as those that use that type of jump usually sit in and jump right at their max sprint distance
    There are sprinters that need a leadout and those that have sheer raw horsepower.
    There are group sprinters (i.e. those that come out of the field) and are a little more aggressive.
    As I know you are crit focussed you need to evaluate what type of sprinter "you" are.

    Here is my definition of me:
    Aggressive - as I am a group sprinter I need to be as I don't have a huge jump - if there finish line is 100-200 meters from the last corner it is going to hurt me.
    Huge power - never really did any huge sprints but estimate I would max out around 2,000 watts when I raced at 180, FTP north of 400
    Preferred sprint for me is one starting from a very high speed, 38+ with a long run in (think Tour type sprints) as I don't need to worry about guys with a big jump playing that card

    And I can tell you exactly, almost to the meter how long I can sprint at 100% effort. When surveying a crit course I calculate backwards from the finish line where I intend to start my sprint.

    A lot of it works out to calculated science and understanding your strengths/weaknesses as well as those of the people you are racing.

    The big difference is I know "me" and what I can and can't do. If I am outgunned knowing that the sprint will not suit me I am a little lazy and let the cards fall where they may.


    I use coaches (why does one get a coach thread) and I have attended specialty sprint training sessions put on my them. In learning to sprint, every sprinter knows the mark on the course where he will begin his sprint. Most sprints are about 20 pedal strokes. One gets in their sprint gear and rides back 20 pedal strokes and finds their mark. We practiced sprints going down a hill that flattens and we hit a mark and had to be in our sprint gear and then drill it. Sprinting requires great execution as well as strength and endurance. If you want to improve your sprint, hire a sprint coach.

    Now this is very basic sprinting 101 and we have very accomplished racers here who probably do it differently. However, every sprinter must know his mark. Part of knowing your mark is knowing yourself.

    Besides weight training there is plyometrics. Here is a video on box jumping that is pretty good since he describes how to box jump and the progression.

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #31
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Hey Hermes you would almost think I know what I am talking about
    As I, and others, have said - the devil's in the details...
    Sometimes it is the smallest thing that can make the difference.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  7. #32
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    Sometimes it is the smallest thing that can make the difference.
    I've asked people to start calling me Funk Roberts and my sprint is already up.

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  8. #33
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    sometimes I go here >
    sometimes I go there >>>
    sometimes I have to go this hard +++++
    sometimes I only have to go this hard ++

    it depends.

    I want to win every sprint. Not just the ones that unfold according to my mind's perfect plan.

  9. #34
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    sometimes I go here >
    sometimes I go there >>>
    sometimes I have to go this hard +++++
    sometimes I only have to go this hard ++

    it depends.

    I want to win every sprint. Not just the ones that unfold according to my mind's perfect plan.
    But I guaran-dam-tee you 'know' where you want to go from and for how long you can maintain that.
    Watching the videos you had up a while ago from Bethel I can tell the exact spot you start getting ansy pansy...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  10. #35
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    loose. plan c is as likely to happen as plan a. guys who don't have another plan usually end up sitting up.

  11. #36
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    In my short lived racing experience thus far I have noticed one thing about sprinters: Almost all of them train to a certain extent with fast group rides that finish with a sprint line. For me, aside from practice, I was only able to sprint on maybe 2-3 races that would have made any significance to my placement. So, for some of the newer racers I think it is important to just get out there and place equal or higher importance on actually sprinting against others as well as doing your own spring drills.

  12. #37
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thechemist View Post
    In my short lived racing experience thus far I have noticed one thing about sprinters: Almost all of them train to a certain extent with fast group rides that finish with a sprint line. For me, aside from practice, I was only able to sprint on maybe 2-3 races that would have made any significance to my placement. So, for some of the newer racers I think it is important to just get out there and place equal or higher importance on actually sprinting against others as well as doing your own spring drills.
    Good point. One issue that you faced is having done a majority of your races at Tim's series. IMHO that is not a true sprinter's crit as the speed ramps up so high on the last lap and the drive to the line from the last corner is not very long. When he ran his weekend races that was a great sprint that ran parallel to the access road to the stadium.
    You should ride with the group that leaves from 5 points on Saturday. There is a sprint point after about 15 miles I think. Get Travis, Patrick or Sully to wind up and sprint them. That will be a good eye opening experience. Not sure that I could catch Trav on a short sprint he accelerates so hard.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  13. #38
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thechemist View Post
    In my short lived racing experience thus far I have noticed one thing about sprinters: Almost all of them train to a certain extent with fast group rides that finish with a sprint line. For me, aside from practice, I was only able to sprint on maybe 2-3 races that would have made any significance to my placement. So, for some of the newer racers I think it is important to just get out there and place equal or higher importance on actually sprinting against others as well as doing your own spring drills.
    Secondly truly 'fast' sprinters have at one time or another trained with a motorpacer (scooters work best) - you can youtube and see the Garmin boys doing a scooter session. A key way to become a faster sprinter is to, well, sprint fast...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    Secondly truly 'fast' sprinters have at one time or another trained with a motorpacer (scooters work best) - you can youtube and see the Garmin boys doing a scooter session. A key way to become a faster sprinter is to, well, sprint fast...
    That's an interesting point, I know Farrar takes it as far as using a scooter at the velodrome. Is there another alternative for those of us who don't have a friend with a scooter to pace us? Maybe starting springs from a slight downhill or something?

  15. #40
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterwaterfall View Post
    That's an interesting point, I know Farrar takes it as far as using a scooter at the velodrome. Is there another alternative for those of us who don't have a friend with a scooter to pace us? Maybe starting springs from a slight downhill or something?
    Like the dog I am I chase buses.
    You can start downhilll, change a wide variety of conditions to get the speed up.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  16. #41
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
    Meh, sprinting.

    You guys work on that while I actually work on stuff that wins races. My 800w peak has no problem getting separation or winning field sprints.
    I thought you said you hadn't won any mass start races yet?

    So maybe it would help you to train this a bit too. =]
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  17. #42
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    I got way bigger fish to fry in training than my sprint. This piddly FTP would be a good start haha.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  18. #43
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    sometimes I go here >
    sometimes I go there >>>
    sometimes I have to go this hard +++++
    sometimes I only have to go this hard ++

    it depends.

    I want to win every sprint. Not just the ones that unfold according to my mind's perfect plan.
    I can't compare myself to gstein by any means, but I will say +1 to this.

    It seems silly to say "I will sprint from this exact spot" to me, I've never done that. It all depends on how the race unfolds.. sometimes you can just "wait" to get around the last corner, sometimes it makes sense to attack before that. It really depends I think.
    pro-meter: lol

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  19. #44
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I got way bigger fish to fry in training than my sprint. This piddly FTP would be a good start haha.
    Me too!

    After all, arriving at the finish with more gas in the tank (better FTP) will help you a lot more than having a huge peak number but little gas in the tank.
    pro-meter: lol

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  20. #45
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    I thought you said you hadn't won any mass start races yet?

    So maybe it would help you to train this a bit too. =]
    No wins, couple podiums on sprint finishes with 75+ fields, couple of sprint wins out of fields with a break up the road, and sprint wins out of a break with a guy or two up the road. Just need to work on my tactics more and stop letting guys get up the road even further in front of me!
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  21. #46
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    Me too!

    After all, arriving at the finish with more gas in the tank (better FTP) will help you a lot more than having a huge peak number but little gas in the tank.
    This is what I need. Can't win a sprint if you're not getting to the finish in a position to sprint.

  22. #47
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    My recent experience:

    I took a few forced months off the bike this summer due to an accident. My miles went way down and are still down as I am not training on the road, only on gravel paths and mostly residential areas.

    During this time I have been going to PT twice a week. It is more like weight training than PT and I can feel the results when I do get on the bike. My "high cardio" is not what it used to be (as in I probably could not hang long term with the leaders in a race at the moment) but I can lay down some serious short term power now with my improved leg and core strength. My weight has only gone up 5 lbs and recently, on my cross bike, got my third fastest time ever on a hill I use for repeats despite not riding hills for 4 months. Even with my injured leg, I can equal my shorter personal road bike records on some segments despite now being on a heavier cross bike with only 40lbs of tire pressure and knobbies.

    When I am rested and go for a little cross ride with my Wife, my legs feel juiced and I can rip. Weight lifting, squats, lunges, curtis p's, leg presses, etc...will improve your sprint. It is up to you learn your body and how much lifting is too much and dial in your training with a variety of exercises not just riding more and hoping that you will turn into a sprinter. Make some muscle and you will make some power.

    I plan to return to road racing next spring (Wife is not happy), but will be doing the bulk of my training off road, in the gym, on the trainer, or riding in circles around a nearby school campus.
    Last edited by Number400; 10-25-13 at 01:51 PM.

  23. #48
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    Do any of you sprint from a seated position? Everyone I know sprints from a standing position except me. Is standing more efficient/better when it comes to sprinting? I have done well, so am hesitant to try in a race. When training for sprints, I cannot go as long or as hard when standing as I can from sitting. So I might have smaller numbers, but I can last longer when seated, and assuming I am in the right place at the end, that seems to be to my advantage. Will I eventually be a better sprinter if I am standing?

  24. #49
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    Then you need to train the muscles to deliver the speed.
    I believe 1,000,000,000,000,000% in gym work as I believe speed can be developed there as well as anywhere else. Muscles don't know the difference, they respond to load and that's it.

    1,200 watts at 180 should be achievable, it just takes focus and discipline.
    Say you're doing a drive-by, quick warm up lift quick warm-down and out lifting session once a week. Squats and deadlifts or olympic lifts? I'd lean really heavily towards olympic, I think the contraction speed probably matches better, but I'm curious what you have to say.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  25. #50
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denvertrout View Post
    Do any of you sprint from a seated position? Everyone I know sprints from a standing position except me. Is standing more efficient/better when it comes to sprinting? I have done well, so am hesitant to try in a race. When training for sprints, I cannot go as long or as hard when standing as I can from sitting. So I might have smaller numbers, but I can last longer when seated, and assuming I am in the right place at the end, that seems to be to my advantage. Will I eventually be a better sprinter if I am standing?
    Get thee to a track. Pretty much everyone is forced to sprint seated because you have to balance your gear choice for the entire race.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

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