Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-25-13, 06:44 PM   #51
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,326
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by denvertrout View Post
Do any of you sprint from a seated position? Everyone I know sprints from a standing position except me. Is standing more efficient/better when it comes to sprinting? I have done well, so am hesitant to try in a race. When training for sprints, I cannot go as long or as hard when standing as I can from sitting. So I might have smaller numbers, but I can last longer when seated, and assuming I am in the right place at the end, that seems to be to my advantage. Will I eventually be a better sprinter if I am standing?
There's a lot to unpack in this question. The short answer is that, for sprinting on the road, it's almost always possible to produce more power in an out of the saddle sprint. You definitely get a better jump when out of the saddle. How do you typically do in a sprint where you remain seated? Are you competitive, or do you lose ground? Whatever the case, the ability to sprint out of the saddle for 200 meters is a matter of anaerobic endurance, and that's something you'll want to develop anyway.

If you are able to put out a good burst of power while seated, that's certainly a valuable ability; you can quickly close gaps, and I've found that it can be beneficial to attack from the saddle sometimes. It's a bit less conspicuous. You see a lot of guys, in the lower cats anyway, who get up out of the saddle and thrash the bike around a lot but don't make much headway. That's not what you want to do, whether attacking or sprinting. But that's a matter of technique, and once you've practiced to the point that you're not throwing away energy, you'll generally make your best sprinting power and speed out of the saddle. That may be the issue you're having.
grolby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-13, 06:48 PM   #52
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,626
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by denvertrout View Post
Do any of you sprint from a seated position? Everyone I know sprints from a standing position except me. Is standing more efficient/better when it comes to sprinting? I have done well, so am hesitant to try in a race. When training for sprints, I cannot go as long or as hard when standing as I can from sitting. So I might have smaller numbers, but I can last longer when seated, and assuming I am in the right place at the end, that seems to be to my advantage. Will I eventually be a better sprinter if I am standing?
My teammate SOC, in red/black, won the field sprint at a Cat 3 race, the last race I think he entered this year, seated. The guy he beat was sprinting out of the saddle:


On the same finishing straight he's won a Tuesday Night Worlds standing, beating a bunch of Cat 1s and 2s, even though "he's not necessarily a sprinter":

In my definition he's more a diesel type sprinter - he once spent 7 laps solo in front of the field, they caught him at about 200m to go, he started sprinting while the first guys were just getting onto his wheel, and he won the sprint. I can out jump him pretty handily and I have more top end but he's much stronger than me in terms of durability. He can sprint on courses where the finish is 300m past the top of a short, steep hill, whereas I basically blow up at the top of such a hill.

Usually sprinting out of the saddle allows you to get a bit more power to the pedals, but you need to be somewhat coordinated in the delivery (i.e. out of saddle pedaling while pulling/pushing on the bars or just letting the bike rock back and forth). Such sprinting normally uses a bigger gear, like a few teeth smaller cog, because it's usually more effective to be at a less extreme rpm when standing. Sitting is more of a sit 'n spin type effort, which is what SOC did in that first sprint.

Track racing is different - I was jumping standing but I didn't have the coordination to sprint standing. My jump on the track was a one way ticket to flipping over the bars when I ran out of coordination so I had to sit down at some point and then try to spin things out.

If you focus on sitting and spinning then saddle height in the sprint becomes a bit of a focus. I can sprint faster sitting if I have my saddle a touch lower because it's just easier to really spin fast if your saddle is low.

Sprinting out of the saddle eliminates saddle height from the equation so you can set up your saddle height to optimize other aspects of racing. When sprinting out of the saddle you only have two sets of contact points - the bars and the pedals. If that relationship works then you're golden. For me I need a pretty low set of drops so I can really torque the pedals when I'm standing.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-13, 06:52 PM   #53
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,626
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterwaterfall View Post
That's an interesting point, I know Farrar takes it as far as using a scooter at the velodrome. Is there another alternative for those of us who don't have a friend with a scooter to pace us? Maybe starting springs from a slight downhill or something?
When I describe MOSS (Maximum Optimal Sprint Speed) I recommend people use a slight downhill to help get up to speed.

I also chase trucks.

Motorpacing is unique in that you can make very subtle changes in effort, meaning while basically at the limit. It's very hard to make those minute changes in effort solo because the equivalent changes solo would be like altering pace 0.1 mph or something (I'm making the number up but it's the relative thing that matters). Basically motorpacing allows you to smooth out the power deltas at high speed. A slight change in speed doesn't radically alter your power requirements and you can coast or ease or something and not lose the moto. Therefore you can hover on the edge of detonation and just keep going and going and going.

Other than riding rollers there's nothing else I can compare to motorpacing, and on rollers I find it hard to go at the limit for any length of time.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

Last edited by carpediemracing; 10-25-13 at 06:55 PM.
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-13, 07:59 PM   #54
denvertrout
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Denver
Bikes:
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
carpe- I have watched a lot of your videos and I keep on learning from them.
Grolby - actually I am doing great in sprints. I have only taken the offensive a couple of times and by catching everyone off guard by starting my sprint at what should be way to soon I have held on each time. If I catch a draft leading to the line I just feel so aero that my effort is really low and I am able to pass at the end with strong legs. Granted my competition and myself are not at the level most of you are, so that really is why I wonder if I should train that aspect or stick with what I am good at? If to be a really good sprinter means get out of the saddle then I will work on that.
denvertrout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-13, 02:26 PM   #55
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Dolan PreCursa
Posts: 2,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
When I describe MOSS (Maximum Optimal Sprint Speed) I recommend people use a slight downhill to help get up to speed.

I also chase trucks.

Motorpacing is unique in that you can make very subtle changes in effort, meaning while basically at the limit. It's very hard to make those minute changes in effort solo because the equivalent changes solo would be like altering pace 0.1 mph or something (I'm making the number up but it's the relative thing that matters). Basically motorpacing allows you to smooth out the power deltas at high speed. A slight change in speed doesn't radically alter your power requirements and you can coast or ease or something and not lose the moto. Therefore you can hover on the edge of detonation and just keep going and going and going.

Other than riding rollers there's nothing else I can compare to motorpacing, and on rollers I find it hard to go at the limit for any length of time.
Late to this thread. Have to second motorpacing, it's basically another way to overspeed.

So often overlooked in a sprinting discussion is Rule #1 ; Get on the right wheel. If you don't get that right there is no rule #2 . In a 40 lap crit your job for 39 of those laps is deciding who you want the be on and how soon you need to be on them.
Voodoo76 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-13, 03:38 PM   #56
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 15,529
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
I have sprinted for primes seated, but not finishes.
shovelhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-13, 06:35 PM   #57
EventServices
Announcer
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Bikes: Many
Posts: 5,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
This.

Replicate race speed.


I know guys who train constantly at 23mph and sprint at 26. A moto will making you train at 30 and sprint at 32. So when you get in a race, you carry on conversations at 26.
EventServices is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-13, 06:36 PM   #58
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,626
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
I've finished races sitting as well but usually because I blew up long before the line.

On the track I have to sit down as I can't sprint out of the saddle too long on a fixed gear on the track where I raced (very shallow banking) and my out of saddle style didn't seem to mix with track, even when I was on a good track (T-Town).
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-13, 06:59 PM   #59
bitingduck
Senior Member
 
bitingduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 3,057
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
On the track I have to sit down as I can't sprint out of the saddle too long on a fixed gear on the track where I raced (very shallow banking) and my out of saddle style didn't seem to mix with track, even when I was on a good track (T-Town).
Very few track sprinters are out of the saddle for more than the initial acceleration (which might be starting from the low 30's mph). Once you get to a high enough RPM you have to sit down to be able to spin that fast.
__________________
Track - the other off-road
http://www.lavelodrome.org
bitingduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-13, 09:41 PM   #60
EventServices
Announcer
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Bikes: Many
Posts: 5,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
If we're sprinting while seated, then there's also the concept of scuffing your feet as opposed to pumping like pistons (or trying to turn circles).
EventServices is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 10:12 AM   #61
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Dolan PreCursa
Posts: 2,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
If we are just talking mechanics a lot of what I have seen over the years is poor upper body position. Hands in the hooks (right up in em, not on the ends), back of wrist flat (or close), elbows bent and out wide! This gets your upper body lower, gives you real leverage on the bars, and tends to keep both wheels on the pavement. It's surprising how many riders do only one or none of the above. Had this drilled into me by a very good coach on the track.

Simple drill. Start from 5 mph or so in at least a 53x18 and jump as hard as you can to 25 or so. Do 4 or 5 as part of your warm up routine (couple minutes rest between). If you have poor posture you will have weak acceleration and/or wheels hopping all over the place. For fun do with 2 or 3 riders. This also builds confidence in the sensation of really reefing on your handlebars and your bike moving around under you.
Voodoo76 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 10:26 AM   #62
ShutUpLegs
Senior Member
 
ShutUpLegs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Mount Joy, PA
Bikes: CAAD10 & Slice RS Black Inc
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
There is some great information on sprinting in this thread, but another to throw out there is in regards to separation. If you are looking to establish a break and get separation what type of effort are you putting in? I've been working on roughly a 30 second effort at not quite maximum effort and then trying to settle in, but wondering what others are doing to get a gap if you intend to make it stick. In training a good workout I've been trying is 30" sprint followed by 4' @ 90-95% FTP followed by another 30" sprint.
ShutUpLegs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 10:51 AM   #63
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: teh Jersey
Bikes:
Posts: 19,883
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
seated

gsteinb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 10:58 AM   #64
Creakyknees
ride lots be safe
 
Creakyknees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Bikes:
Posts: 5,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
I only stand when needed for max acceleration. Yes, I can put out more power standing but the energy cost is very high and the aerodynamics very bad. And I'm never ever the strongest / fastest guy there at the end so I really spend more time worrying about being on the right wheel and in the right position.
Creakyknees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 11:45 AM   #65
aaronmcd
Senior Member
 
aaronmcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Bikes: Cervelo S5
Posts: 2,503
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShutUpLegs View Post
There is some great information on sprinting in this thread, but another to throw out there is in regards to separation. If you are looking to establish a break and get separation what type of effort are you putting in? I've been working on roughly a 30 second effort at not quite maximum effort and then trying to settle in, but wondering what others are doing to get a gap if you intend to make it stick. In training a good workout I've been trying is 30" sprint followed by 4' @ 90-95% FTP followed by another 30" sprint.
How many reps do you do? I do something similar sometimes on my commute but only have time for one rep. So I do around 120% FTP
aaronmcd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 01:01 PM   #66
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 15,529
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShutUpLegs View Post
There is some great information on sprinting in this thread, but another to throw out there is in regards to separation. If you are looking to establish a break and get separation what type of effort are you putting in? I've been working on roughly a 30 second effort at not quite maximum effort and then trying to settle in, but wondering what others are doing to get a gap if you intend to make it stick. In training a good workout I've been trying is 30" sprint followed by 4' @ 90-95% FTP followed by another 30" sprint.
The short answer is "it depends". If I can get the element of surprise, I go at a kilo effort for 30 seconds before looking back for separation. If I have it, I continue the kilo and settle in for a lap. If there is a chase group I settle in at FTP or so and be ready for the catch and counter. If I go too hard I can't react after the catch. If this is the end if the race and I'm going for the win then it's the longest ten minutes of your life. Flat out.

For sprinting, the best training is sprint practice. This is everything from form sprints to standing starts to flat out from 25mph.
shovelhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 01:06 PM   #67
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: teh Jersey
Bikes:
Posts: 19,883
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
For sprinting, the best training is good genes
fixed it
gsteinb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-13, 04:19 PM   #68
ShutUpLegs
Senior Member
 
ShutUpLegs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Mount Joy, PA
Bikes: CAAD10 & Slice RS Black Inc
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
How many reps do you do? I do something similar sometimes on my commute but only have time for one rep. So I do around 120% FTP
Can typically only manage about 2 reps
ShutUpLegs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-13, 05:47 AM   #69
rkwaki
soon to be gsteinc...
 
rkwaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nayr497's BFF
Bikes:
Posts: 8,559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wens View Post
Say you're doing a drive-by, quick warm up lift quick warm-down and out lifting session once a week. Squats and deadlifts or olympic lifts? I'd lean really heavily towards olympic, I think the contraction speed probably matches better, but I'm curious what you have to say.
What kind of time commitment?
rkwaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:35 AM.