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-   -   I dislike Joe Friel and Chris Carmichael (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/920766-i-dislike-joe-friel-chris-carmichael.html)

Fat Boy 11-04-13 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovoleg (Post 16218111)
You can win cross races having good technique and mediocre/terrible fitness. Theres a guy in NEO who couldn't even keep up on a Z2/Z3/Z4 tempo group ride with us(we'd drop him repeatedly) late last season but is doing pretty damn decent in cat2 cross. He has really good technique, doesn't overly slow down for every corner and knows how to get over the barriers quick.

Experience man, it helps!

incorrect.

You can lose them by having good fitness and bad technique, but the other way around cannot win anything of consequence.

jsutkeepspining 11-04-13 03:01 PM

a cat 5/4 race yes. maybe even a cat 3 race if you're really that good on the bike and don't completely suck when it comes to strength, but in a p/1/2 race, not a chance. You need ot be strong to compete in those (you can be weak, and can get last place, but that's not really competing).

grolby 11-04-13 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovoleg (Post 16218111)
You can win cross races having good technique and mediocre/terrible fitness.

Good handling skills let you do more with less in 'cross, but no, you can't win 'cross races on low fitness. You're still better off with the opposite combination, excellent fitness and weak technique.

Fat Boy 11-04-13 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpediemracing (Post 16216387)
I'm not a big fan of Carmichael...

Bob Roll is watching the whole time. After the story gets done he asked Carmichael "So he reconned the course?" "Yeah" "And he knew where the barriers were going to be placed?" "Uh" "You mean he came up the climb, he knew where they'd paint the line, where they'd set up the crowd control barriers, how wide the route would be, all that?" "Uh"

I think Carmichael is a D-bag for the aforementioned reasons (as well as a haircut that's just awful). Roll seems like a decent guy when you read his book or hear him on TV, but as far as the doping thing goes, he's the same as the rest. As a FOL he was completely complicit in Big Tex's doping. It wasn't like LA kept it on the DL, hell he was announcing it to anyone he thought he could impress by talking about it. Roll was a guy that was with him in his first training camp post cancer, so he was definitely an 'insider'.

I think people see his goofy smile and think he's something he's not.

merlinextraligh 11-04-13 06:16 PM

I'm coached by A CTS coach, and have ridden with Carmichael a number of times. Regardless of the all the past history, I think he knows what he's doing as a coach, is a very good entrepeneur, and a good guy to hang out with.

shovelhd 11-04-13 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovoleg (Post 16218086)
I got clearance from my girlfriend on a powermeter

Hoo boy.

Ygduf 11-04-13 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16219397)
I'm coached by A CTS coach, and have ridden with Carmichael a number of times. Regardless of the all the past history, I think he knows what he's doing as a coach, is a very good entrepeneur, and a good guy to hang out with.

Black or white! Pick a side. There's no room for moral ambiguity on internet forums. Faced with all the temptations and money and circumstances, we all would have made the more moral choice! Every time! :thumb:

shovelhd 11-04-13 06:25 PM

OP, whether you agree with Carmichael or not, what he lays out is a system that targets training based on the kind of racing you do. That's what's missing in your plan. No training focus. No rest weeks, and no detail on what you do during the week. No consistent intensity, and a lot of junk miles (fast group rides). If you like reading, pick up the powermeter book, even though you don't have one. Understand the concepts, especially when it comes to periodization and push-pull. Once you understand these basic concepts, you'll want a power meter. Even a canned plan with measurement is better than what you are doing now. Structure does not have to be dull, but it is often not fun. Winning is fun.

Racer Ex 11-04-13 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16219397)
Regardless of the all the past history...a good guy to hang out with.

I have an out of court settlement I need to cover. If you help a brother out I'll come ride with you and make you laugh your ass off.

Racer Ex 11-04-13 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16219430)
Black or white! Pick a side. There's no room for moral ambiguity on internet forums. Faced with all the temptations and money and circumstances, we all would have made the more moral choice! Every time! :thumb:

Administering PED's to teenagers is morally ambiguous? Generally things that are ambiguous are defensible. So fire away.

I mean, granted, it's not sodomizing alter boys, though there's internet advocacy groups for that too.

I was going to post up a color chart showing where, between black and white those two things would fall, but then I Googled "Shades of Gray" and got too bored to continue.

furiousferret 11-04-13 06:58 PM

Cheaters are better people to hang out with.

Ygduf 11-04-13 06:59 PM

Hey, argue with that other guy. I'm not educated enough on it to argue yes or no, I'm advocating yes OR no.

But giving drugs to kids, as you reference, certainly sounds bad. I bet though, that whichever guy did that rationalized it hard to himself and would describe it differently. Not excusing it, just saying rare is the person who knows his or herself to be evil.

Racer Ex 11-04-13 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16219511)
Hey, argue with that other guy. I'm not educated enough on it to argue yes or no, I'm advocating yes OR no.

Not excusing it, just saying rare is the person who knows his or herself to be evil.

Amoral people exist. People who do bad things despite knowing what's right is pretty common. And yeah, few people who act evil consider themselves to be evil.

Karaoke is an industry based on a lack of self awareness.

The info about him shooting up juniors with PED's is out there and not very ambiguous. Four guys on the junior team accused him of doping them without their consent or knowledge. I know people that were on national junior teams around that time and they all talked about getting "vitamin injections".

For me, doing that to kids in your charge to perform well in a bike race is pretty horrible and pretty far out on the spectrum of "whoops, boy did I make a bad decision".

The other stuff is just a shrug in the malfeasance of life.

Ygduf 11-04-13 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16219669)
For me, doing that to kids in your charge to perform well in a bike race is pretty horrible and pretty far out on the spectrum of "whoops, boy did I make a bad decision".

Clearly, we agree on that.

My post was more a tongue-in-cheek joke about the internet and lack of middle ground. Looking less appropriate by the post!

My post-y sense is tingling and that this is one of those cases where the offhand comment makes me look like an ******* for no good reason, so I'll just leave it yeah, I agree that drugging people without their knowledge or consent is ****ty, and doing it to juniors that presumably put their trust in you as a professional is near if not at the very bottom of the barrel of inexcusable wrongdoings.

echappist 11-04-13 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16219482)
I was going to post up a color chart showing where, between black and white those two things would fall, but then I Googled "Shades of Gray" and got too bored to continue.

On the topic of sadistic coaches, perhaps you shouldn't be casting stones :p. Though your clients seem to be a bunch of masochists as they always seem to come back for more ;)

Fat Boy 11-04-13 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16219482)
Administering PED's to teenagers is morally ambiguous? Generally things that are ambiguous are defensible. So fire away.

Well said.

I have a somewhat 'liberal' view of adult pros competing under a sanctioning body with blinders on, but the Jr. program deal was wrong on the same order as the East Germans and Chinese Olympic programs.

Racer Ex 11-04-13 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ygduf (Post 16219734)
My post-y sense is tingling and that this is one of those cases where the offhand comment makes me look like an ******* for no good reason

An Internet first for sure ;)

Ygduf 11-04-13 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16220016)
An Internet first for sure ;)


next http://www.searchingforagem.com/FlyingPig.gif

merlinextraligh 11-05-13 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16219482)
Administering PED's to teenagers is morally ambiguous? Generally things that are ambiguous are defensible. So fire away.

I mean, granted, it's not sodomizing alter boys, though there's internet advocacy groups for that too.

I was going to post up a color chart showing where, between black and white those two things would fall, but then I Googled "Shades of Gray" and got too bored to continue.

I'm pretty sure his current coaching program doesn't involve doping, so the past history doesn't effect me. Also, I'd be willing to bet that what actually went on was a bit more nuanced than the plaintiff's allegations. I would like to think that if you doped minors unknowingly that there would be criminal charges involved.

My intent here was not to defend Carmichael's moral character or past history. Just sayin, I've found him helpful as a coach, and Ive enjoyed riding with him.

echappist 11-05-13 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16220703)
I'm pretty sure his current coaching program doesn't involve doping, so the past history doesn't effect me.
Also, I'd be willing to bet that what actually went on was a bit more nuanced than the plaintiff's allegations.

Would you say the nuance is more or less than the nuance between "affect" and "effect"?
Quote:

I would like to think that if you doped minors unknowingly that there would be criminal charges involved.
Maybe they entertained the thought, but didn't want to pursue that road. Fact is, Carmichael did settle out of court.

In any case, we all know that when the defendant settles out of court in a civil trial, no wrong doing occurred. Just ask all the financial companies that paid fines but didn't have to admit fault.


Quote:

My intent here was not to defend Carmichael's moral character or past history. Just sayin, I've found him helpful as a coach, and Ive enjoyed riding with him.

Of course not. Your intention was to insinuate that the riders suing him may have been complicit and impugn their reputations. If your intention were not to defend Carmichael's past and character, the first part of your post wouldn't have been necessary.


merlinextraligh 11-05-13 08:43 AM

I didn't impugn anyone. I do believe its likely that there's more to the story than you see in media accounts. There almost always are.

Its pretty clear Carmichael played a role in the doping culture that was pervasive in cycling, in several ways that have been cataloged. I don't however think that makes him the devil incarnate.

And thanks for the pedantic catch. That certainy affected the grammatical integrity of the forum.

gsteinb 11-05-13 08:46 AM

more to to accounts, more nuanced, like when a minor agrees to lay down with a man? being an adult amongst children means it carries certain responsibilities.

devil? I believe him to be little more than a pawn and wanting little more than recognition and wealth. the beard.

ovoleg 11-05-13 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining (Post 16218826)
a cat 5/4 race yes. maybe even a cat 3 race if you're really that good on the bike and don't completely suck when it comes to strength, but in a p/1/2 race, not a chance. You need ot be strong to compete in those (you can be weak, and can get last place, but that's not really competing).

John Proppe?

jsutkeepspining 11-05-13 09:26 AM

I bet he could beat you. He just likes to ride too hard too early.

ovoleg 11-05-13 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining (Post 16220965)
I bet he could beat you. He just likes to ride too hard too early.

He would diss me on CX, but I'm not 100% convinced he could drop me on the road unless he actually starts training and/or riding. I'm just using him as an example of someone who has somewhat mediocre fitness right now but still kicks ass in CX because he has a lot of technical skill?

I dont really know much about CX just basing this on observations.


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