Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 75
  1. #1
    Senior Member Lspade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    My Bikes
    2013 Specialized Tarmac
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    I dislike Joe Friel and Chris Carmichael

    I just finished reading both "The Cyclists Training Bible" and "The Time Crunched Cyclist" to help me train more efficiently next year. The things I learned from these books are:

    --scheduling workouts will make riding my bike less fun

    --I want a power meter but my wife won't let me buy one

    --it is not possible to be the best racer all year long

    --I want to win races

    Ok, so I learned a lot more than that but I still need your assistance to help me understand my "weakness". I have competed in 14 cx races this season and have no trouble attaining the "holeshot" even if I start in the second row. I usually finish the first lap in the top 5 or 6 places and feel great but then I hit a wall and watch as the cyclists pass by me effortlessly. I usually finish in the top 25-50% of the racers (as opposed to my early season tactic of starting slower and finishing towards the back).

    WHY can't I sustain a hard effort for more than a few minutes? What is my "weak link"? I spent the entire summer riding in long fast group rides with minimal high intensity workouts which apparantly hasn't worked for me so I need to to get more organized with my training.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    34
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lspade View Post
    I just finished reading both "The Cyclists Training Bible" and "The Time Crunched Cyclist" to help me train more efficiently next year. The things I learned from these books are:

    --scheduling workouts will make riding my bike less fun

    --I want a power meter but my wife won't let me buy one

    --it is not possible to be the best racer all year long

    --I want to win races

    Ok, so I learned a lot more than that but I still need your assistance to help me understand my "weakness". I have competed in 14 cx races this season and have no trouble attaining the "holeshot" even if I start in the second row. I usually finish the first lap in the top 5 or 6 places and feel great but then I hit a wall and watch as the cyclists pass by me effortlessly. I usually finish in the top 25-50% of the racers (as opposed to my early season tactic of starting slower and finishing towards the back).

    WHY can't I sustain a hard effort for more than a few minutes? What is my "weak link"? I spent the entire summer riding in long fast group rides with minimal high intensity workouts which apparantly hasn't worked for me so I need to to get more organized with my training.

    Thanks!
    You answered your own question in red. Your weak link is being able to sustain a hard effort for more than a few minutes. If you are specifically training for 'cross, a four hour ride with a few blips into Z4-Z5 is not going to help. It sounds like maybe you should focus more on shorter rides with longer efforts at high intensity rather than long rides with minimal efforts. I believe there is a sticky with some workout recipes. Try some of the threshold/VO2 workouts, throw-up, repeat, then go win some races.

  3. #3
    Banana Pancakes furiousferret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Redlands, CA
    Posts
    2,458
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I wouldn't say I dislike either one, but I found it both cute and amusing Carmichael took most of the credit for Lance's wins, explaining everything in long winded dissertations and making millions in the process.

    You're not alone of the powermeter, I just got clearance after years of cycling.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ffld Cnty Connecticut
    My Bikes
    Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
    Posts
    15,271
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lspade View Post
    --I want a power meter but my wife won't let me buy one
    Powertaps have had a decent price drop recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lspade View Post
    --scheduling workouts will make riding my bike less fun


    WHY can't I sustain a hard effort for more than a few minutes?
    Don't schedule every workout if you are worried about losing the fun. Do longer intervals/hard efforts, but not too often. Read the stickied workout recipe thread.

    I dislike Charmichael too ..... for his role in junior doping.
    Last edited by Homebrew01; 11-03-13 at 03:41 PM.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  5. #5
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,167
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not a big fan of Carmichael. There's a telling scene in one of the many doping books where Carmichael is helping in the background of the Tour announcing (by… I forget his name but I actually recognize it. Al Michaels?). Lance wins the stage. Michaels (or whoever) doesn't have anything to point out so no story other than Lance wins. Carmichael says "he knew the corner, he reconned it in March or May" or something like that. Michaels seizes that, they do this story on how Lance reconned the finish and knew he could go hard through the last corner.

    Bob Roll is watching the whole time. After the story gets done he asked Carmichael "So he reconned the course?" "Yeah" "And he knew where the barriers were going to be placed?" "Uh" "You mean he came up the climb, he knew where they'd paint the line, where they'd set up the crowd control barriers, how wide the route would be, all that?" "Uh"

    If you've ever arrived early at a race, like really early, you might be able to guess within 10-20 meters where the line will be. In some races there's literally 400-500 meters of variance (Prospect Park). If there are crowd control barriers then there's even more variability.

    It's obvious from the story just what the author (and Bob Roll) think of the coach.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  6. #6
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    7,861
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
    I wouldn't say I dislike either one, but I found it both cute and amusing Carmichael took most of the credit for Lance's wins, explaining everything in long winded dissertations and making millions in the process.
    no, that's called the red herring tactic. Carmichael was the nominal coach, which covered up for Lance's real coach, a certain Dr. Ferrari
    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    I dislike Charmichael too ..... for his role in junior doping.
    bingo, and this. And he not only facilitated it but injected it into riders who wanted nothing to do with doping...

    -----

    now to make this on point. No idea what your fitness is, but you really haven't mentioned how you are preparing for the races as far as training is concerned.

    As for why you can't sustain hard effort for more than a few minute? Well, there are different levels of "hard effort", and some of them you probably can't sustain for more than three minutes while others you can go for 20+ minutes or so. But it sounds like you had enough for one strong surge and basically blew out the gasket afterwards.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Lspade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    My Bikes
    2013 Specialized Tarmac
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    Don't schedule every workout if you are worried about losing the fun. Do longer intervals/hard efforts, but not too often. Read the stickied workout recipe thread.
    Wow, that is a good simple solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by prana800 View Post
    You answered your own question in red. Your weak link is being able to sustain a hard effort for more than a few minutes. If you are specifically training for 'cross, a four hour ride with a few blips into Z4-Z5 is not going to help. It sounds like maybe you should focus more on shorter rides with longer efforts at high intensity rather than long rides with minimal efforts. I believe there is a sticky with some workout recipes. Try some of the threshold/VO2 workouts, throw-up, repeat, then go win some races.
    "threshold/vo2 workouts" is the answer I was looking for! Thanks. And I forgot about the workout recipe page. It is actually part of the reason why i got the books, so I could understand what z4, vo2 max, etc means. I am going to check it out now.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Lspade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    My Bikes
    2013 Specialized Tarmac
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    As for why you can't sustain hard effort for more than a few minute? Well, there are different levels of "hard effort", and some of them you probably can't sustain for more than three minutes while others you can go for 20+ minutes or so. But it sounds like you had enough for one strong surge and basically blew out the gasket afterwards.
    Ya, the 20+ min efforts destroy me.



    ...I didn't know that Charmicheal was such a drug pusher. I mean junior doping? Is that for real?

  9. #9
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    7,861
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lspade View Post
    Ya, the 20+ min efforts destroy me.



    ...I didn't know that Charmicheal was such a drug pusher. I mean junior doping? Is that for real?
    My bet is that your main issue is recoverability, not lactate threshold (20 min efforts), per se. I mean, it's doubtful that you would even go continuously for 3 min in a CX race (i've never done one, so i don't know), but the ability to recover from 60-second efforts and do it again if probably where you should look. And microbursts are focused on that. But then again, you are probably getting some good training in races, too. Without knowing more, it's quite hard to direct you where to look. The other thing is that 14 races is a lot (i guess you've been racing for 7 straight weeks?), and you may want to take a break from racing for a while, etc

    -----

    As for Carmichael, http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/...-to-court_9763

    apparently Carmichael settled out of court.

  10. #10
    Banned.
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere
    My Bikes
    something
    Posts
    1,041
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do 30-30s. They make me feel like I am doing a cross race. Or do a < 2 min hill and repeat X 10. Both remind me of cross. Oh yeah probably the biggest recommendation: Practice your starting sprint (I don't know though, perhaps this is already a good skill for you, if not then REALLY work on it). As I am sure you know your placement before the first turn is what easily dictates the rest of your race. If you are not in the top 20 by the time you hit that corner then you are out of winning contention. At my one cross race so far this year I got staged at the back for being day-of-reg. I spent 45 minutes of straight up passing people in order to go from 90th to 21st place. If you are not through that corner and you can't already see the leader: race over (One reason I frickin hate cross).

    Alright so that this doesn't sem like it should totally be in the cross racing section: I concur, frickin doper enablers. Go get a coach!

  11. #11
    Senior Member Lspade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    My Bikes
    2013 Specialized Tarmac
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    My bet is that your main issue is recoverability, not lactate threshold (20 min efforts), per se. I mean, it's doubtful that you would even go continuously for 3 min in a CX race (i've never done one, so i don't know), but the ability to recover from 60-second efforts and do it again if probably where you should look. And microbursts are focused on that. But then again, you are probably getting some good training in races, too. Without knowing more, it's quite hard to direct you where to look. The other thing is that 14 races is a lot (i guess you've been racing for 7 straight weeks?), and you may want to take a break from racing for a while, etc
    I am confused. I recall reading that lactate threshold training teaches your body how to dump acid build up faster. This is recoverability correct? So I dont get how short bursts differ from longer threshold efforts if they both require your body to dump lactate acid as fast as possible.


    And you are correct that I have been racing for about 7 weeks. I understand that my body is becomming more and more fatigued but what I want to know is what happens if I continue racing through the entire season? If I continue racing (which will fatigue me even more) and then recover won't I have larger gains than if I started my recovery period right now?

    By the way, this was my race schedule:
    Week 1- raced Tuesday
    Week 2- raced Tuesday, twice Saturday
    Week 3- raced Tuesday, Sunday
    Week 4- raced Saturday, Sunday
    Week 5- raced Tuesday, Sunday
    Week 6- bad crash prior week so no racing
    Week 7- raced twice Sunday
    Week 8- raced Sunday

  12. #12
    Senior Member Lspade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    My Bikes
    2013 Specialized Tarmac
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    Alright so that this doesn't sem like it should totally be in the cross racing section...
    Good point, I supposed I should have mentioned that the same thing happened in the three crits I raced earlier in the summer. I start off easily in the lead group then suddenly hit a wall and fall back with the slower guys. In fact, any race I have ever done I EASILY (not exagerating) jump ahead of everyone but then slowly fall back. Maybe it is adrenaline?

  13. #13
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    7,861
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lspade View Post
    I am confused. I recall reading that lactate threshold training teaches your body how to dump acid build up faster. This is recoverability correct? So I dont get how short bursts differ from longer threshold efforts if they both require your body to dump lactate acid as fast as possible.


    And you are correct that I have been racing for about 7 weeks. I understand that my body is becomming more and more fatigued but what I want to know is what happens if I continue racing through the entire season? If I continue racing (which will fatigue me even more) and then recover won't I have larger gains than if I started my recovery period right now?

    By the way, this was my race schedule:
    Week 1- raced Tuesday
    Week 2- raced Tuesday, twice Saturday
    Week 3- raced Tuesday, Sunday
    Week 4- raced Saturday, Sunday
    Week 5- raced Tuesday, Sunday
    Week 6- bad crash prior week so no racing
    Week 7- raced twice Sunday
    Week 8- raced Sunday
    As for your first question, long LT intervals operate at a near steady state, right at your lactate threshold. Micro-burst, 30/30, etc operate at significantly high intensity followed by very low intensity. During the off period, your body gets to clear the excess lactate built up as a result of the anaerobic effort, whereas in a long LT interval your lactate levels are steady.

    as for your second point, that is predicated upon the notion your body can handle all the stress. You don't know if it could, and no one else knows either. Best to play it safe and take at least a rest week to recyperate.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Lspade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Chaska, MN
    My Bikes
    2013 Specialized Tarmac
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    As for your first question, long LT intervals operate at a near steady state, right at your lactate threshold. Micro-burst, 30/30, etc operate at significantly high intensity followed by very low intensity. During the off period, your body gets to clear the excess lactate built up as a result of the anaerobic effort, whereas in a long LT interval your lactate levels are steady.

    as for your second point, that is predicated upon the notion your body can handle all the stress. You don't know if it could, and no one else knows either. Best to play it safe and take at least a rest week to recyperate.
    Thank you for helping me understand this stuff. Your answers are much appreciated.

  15. #15
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,231
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I got clearance from my girlfriend on a powermeter by just buying it and later telling her I bought one. She already hates my cycling addiction so this didn't make things worse/better lol.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  16. #16
    bf is my facebook. ljrichar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    1,146
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Unfortunately, there's probably not a lot you can do right now. Most fitness for cross is carried over from what people did before the season. The guys who are winning now will probably keep winning through the series. They have most likely been racing road &/or MTB's as well. If you haven't, you will be at a disadvantage. The one thing you can control is efficiency. Improving your lines/handling, not braking, etc... can go a long way in speeding you up.

  17. #17
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,231
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You can win cross races having good technique and mediocre/terrible fitness. Theres a guy in NEO who couldn't even keep up on a Z2/Z3/Z4 tempo group ride with us(we'd drop him repeatedly) late last season but is doing pretty damn decent in cat2 cross. He has really good technique, doesn't overly slow down for every corner and knows how to get over the barriers quick.

    Experience man, it helps!
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  18. #18
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,227
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I got clearance from my girlfriend on a powermeter by just buying it and later telling her I bought one. She already hates my cycling addiction so this didn't make things worse/better lol.
    if you need clearance from a girlfriend to spend your own money you're doing it wrong.

  19. #19
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    3,059
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I got clearance from my girlfriend on a powermeter by just buying it and later telling her I bought one. She already hates my cycling addiction so this didn't make things worse/better lol.
    I'll never understand this.
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  20. #20
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    My Bikes
    road bikes
    Posts
    5,569
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandro View Post
    I'll never understand this.
    Is also a bad sign, imo, for going forward.

    My wife pretends to not like my cycling, but when I'm hurt and home she sure seems to prefer me out riding!

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  21. #21
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,231
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandro View Post
    I'll never understand this.
    I'm trying to compromise a little here, we'll see how it goes.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  22. #22
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    getting photographed by rockets...
    Posts
    8,133
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    if you need clearance from a girlfriend to spend your own money you're doing it wrong.
    You and I both know you have it made with mama...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    6,300
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    my girlfriend lets me spend all i want, it's the wife that keeps me in check ... ba da bump.

  24. #24
    **** that mattm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CALI
    Posts
    11,034
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OP, are you sure you read the Friel book?

    Anyway I didn't read the rest of the thread, but what I got from the first post is that you lack Endurance/Base.

    Now's the time to work on it!! (unless you're training for CX, in which case you should grab a cold one or something)

  25. #25
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Russian Vodka
    Posts
    8,231
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    OP, are you sure you read the Friel book?

    Anyway I didn't read the rest of the thread, but what I got from the first post is that you lack Endurance/Base.

    Now's the time to work on it!! (unless you're training for CX, in which case you should grab a cold one or something)
    ahahhahah
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •