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  1. #51
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    ummmmm, why???
    Well since you asked...

    I was in a nightclub years ago and my buddy and I were ion the second floor looking down at one of the dance floors. There was this girl dancing that had 'hot shorts' on that were as tight as second second. My buddy is trying to say something but it is really loud so he tries one last time...
    As he goes to yell something happened and the music cuts out (like a power disruption)...
    So there is absolutely no sound in the club and he yells while pointing at this girl...



    Look at the canoe on that one...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  2. #52
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    i dont even think about it when i'm riding/racing, i'm where i'm supposed to be when i'm supposed to be there.

    generally, sprinting = drops; descending = drops; cornering = usually drops sometimes hoods; any other time, depends. solo break = i'm effed so i should sit up but i will switch around a bunch between iab, hoods with forearms on the bars and drops, same for taking pulls.

    ratio of total time during races, i'd estimate 75% hoods to 25% drops, but that's a SWAG.

  3. #53
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    i dont even think about it when i'm riding/racing, i'm where i'm supposed to be when i'm supposed to be there.

    .
    stop making sense, the OP needs to be told what to do (no offense OP)

  4. #54
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    I spend more time in the drops than most, especially on group rides where it helps my old fat arse keep up.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  5. #55
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    I do a lot of racing in the hoods, and a lot in the drops. All of my wins contain some of both. Same with training. Get comfortable with all the positions, figure out what works for you. Also, note that there are several positions that all have your hands down in the drops, with varying elbow bend and in/out of the saddle. The drops, hoods, and tops are all pretty versatile tools -- but they are not "positions."

  6. #56
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    I didn't say why I spent all of the 2 hours I ride in the hood...


    Don't hate me because I'm voluptuous...
    you are hated on b/c you aren't zaftig

  7. #57
    Senior Member topflightpro's Avatar
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    I race in the drops. I do hard group rides in the drops. I descend in the drops.

    I climb on the hoods - there is no advantage to being in the drops during long climbs.

    And when just riding along, I will be on the hoods, or on the tops or in the drops. Just depends on what I feel like doing.

  8. #58
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    you are hated on b/c you aren't zaftig
    You need a new word, bro.

  9. #59
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    i know. haha. how about junoesque or curvaceous?

    they just don't roll off the tongue as well as zaftig...

  10. #60
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    I kind of like junoesque.

  11. #61
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    i know. haha. how about junoesque or curvaceous?

    they just don't roll off the tongue as well as zaftig...
    "zaftig" rolls off the tongue? What the hell shape is your tongue usually when you're using it?

    come on rk, it's underhand...

  12. #62
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    Serious question: what do modern coaches say?
    Sadly, most people who call themselves a 'coach' only teach power and physiology. Very few of them teach technique or tactics.

    That's why I had to dig back into the history book for an attribution.

  13. #63
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    Sadly, most people who call themselves a 'coach' only teach power and physiology. Very few of them teach technique or tactics.

    That's why I had to dig back into the history book for an attribution.
    I teach the 3TTT's (trademarked)

    technique, tactics and teamwork

    Fitness is a byproduct of riding your damn bike

  14. #64
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    You are in the minority, good man.

  15. #65
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    You are in the minority, good man.
    yup, which is sad
    Bike race training has become more and more about physiological numbers.

    Exactly why I am a huge fan of one-day classics and crits. Pure battling. Pure sport.

  16. #66
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    yup, which is sad
    Bike race training has become more and more about physiological numbers.

    Exactly why I am a huge fan of one-day classics and crits. Pure battling. Pure sport.
    You and me both...
    The one thing I relay to the guys that I help is that they need to learn about themselves before anything else...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  17. #67
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    You and me both...
    The one thing I relay to the guys that I help is that they need to learn about themselves before anything else...
    Good point.
    Ask them, are you a "bike rider", or a "bike racer"?
    One is all about training and pacelines and finding their limits. The other simply uses that stuff as prep for war.

    Nothing wrong with the first person, but winning bike races typically means being unliked at some point.

    So be honest bike racers. Do you really compete, or are you in love with the internet pictures of competing?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    I teach the 3TTT's (trademarked)

    technique, tactics and teamwork

    Fitness is a byproduct of riding your damn bike
    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    yup, which is sad
    Bike race training has become more and more about physiological numbers.

    Exactly why I am a huge fan of one-day classics and crits. Pure battling. Pure sport.
    why do you think this is? I have my theories, but I'd like to read yours.

    fwiw, i'm new enough at this sport to have seen coaching be predominantly about physiological numbers.

  19. #69
    stole your bike roadiejorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    I kind of like junoesque.
    fat bastard is the one that always comes to mind for me.
    I like pie

  20. #70
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    why do you think this is? I have my theories, but I'd like to read yours.

    fwiw, i'm new enough at this sport to have seen coaching be predominantly about physiological numbers.
    The sport got older.
    Ppl find bike racing after years of other sports.

    Juniors are taught fundamentals and my 3TTT's. Just like anyone new to any game should be.

    Many masters age athletes are looking at bike racing, much the same they do at other "individual" sports they tried (running, triathlon, mt biking, etc...
    As a fitness thing.

    Try teaching a 30, 40, 50, 60 year old how to ride a bike. They think they already understand because they learned at age 5. Ha...

  21. #71
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    Good point.
    Ask them, are you a "bike rider", or a "bike racer"?
    One is all about training and pacelines and finding their limits. The other simply uses that stuff as prep for war.

    Nothing wrong with the first person, but winning bike races typically means being unliked at some point.

    So be honest bike racers. Do you really compete, or are you in love with the internet pictures of competing?
    As we have discussed before you and I are about the same age, came the same pathway, etc and I agree with this post.
    I have posted in the past what it is like to race (i.e. crits) at the elite level.
    Locally there are a lot of guys who can't stand me and I have had many confrontations post race. Take a look at those that mutual respect as well as some of my friends, true monsters on the bike. They know what it takes.

    I have said it a bunch of times, off the bike I am a super nice guy, training I am a super nice guy, racing I am a ****ing ******* that will bump, hook, chop you in a second, not trying to start an argument about it but go in the racing video thread and watch guys like Rahsaan amongst other and tell me that they are 'playing nice'...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  22. #72
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    ...not trying to start an argument about it but go in the racing video thread and watch guys like Rahsaan amongst other and tell me that they are 'playing nice'...
    I've shown those videos to non-cycling friends to try and put a point on why I love racing. The racers in those videos are obviously on another planet as far as fitness and skill goes, but the atmosphere is similar. My non-cycling friends also react with "It looks so dangerous! He hit that other racer! OMG THAT'S INSANE!" To which I reply: "That's bike racing at a high level and that's why I love it."
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    The sport got older.
    Ppl find bike racing after years of other sports.
    Juniors are taught fundamentals and my 3TTT's. Just like anyone new to any game should be.

    Many masters age athletes are looking at bike racing, much the same they do at other "individual" sports they tried (running, triathlon, mt biking, etc...
    As a fitness thing.

    Try teaching a 30, 40, 50, 60 year old how to ride a bike. They think they already understand because they learned at age 5. Ha...
    nearly 100% what I would have said. i would add that the demographic views the sport as a hobby, which probably aligns more in what you describe as a bike rider than a bike racer.

    I started the sport in my 30s and was (still am) very receptive to being taught how to ride my bike, but i'm not going to bump, hook, chop, or otherwise dick over someone to win a bike race. it's not in my wiring, and I'm OK with that.

  24. #74
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    The sport got older.
    Ppl find bike racing after years of other sports.

    Juniors are taught fundamentals and my 3TTT's. Just like anyone new to any game should be.

    Many masters age athletes are looking at bike racing, much the same they do at other "individual" sports they tried (running, triathlon, mt biking, etc...
    As a fitness thing.

    Try teaching a 30, 40, 50, 60 year old how to ride a bike. They think they already understand because they learned at age 5. Ha...
    I have a different take. I hear "number fixation" from racers of all ages. If you pick up a cycling mag, look at a cycling website, or read through most of the books (including bios) you get:

    TrainingFTPnumbersFTPpowertrainingnumbersFTPpowernumberstrainingtrainingtrainingFTP

    If you sign up for a USAC license you get crickets or worse. I had the local association throw up a brick wall when I tried to put classes together in one state. And it's not like their coaching certs are heavy on tactics either.

    If you're lucky and live in an area like NorCal you get actual mentors who know what they are talking about.

    If you're not lucky you're as likely as not to get some club/team jackass who is certain that his 4th place at the Abandoned Industrial Park GP Cat 3 makes him Guinard meets Il Falco. I did a team clinic a while back and it was pretty head scratching to have some people who had been racing for years be that clueless.

    But again, mostly you see a lot of TrainingFTPnumberspowertrainingFTPnumberspowernumberstrainingtrainingtraining.

    It's not like there's some magical osmosis that tell people "You need to learn tactics". Like, say, a USAC required class before you go dive bomb a corner and wipe out half the cat 5 field.

    Repeating myself but our sport's educational model is to throw kindergardeners in a room with lighters and matches and see who makes it out.

    But in defense of numbers you can use them to evaluate how well someone is riding tactically, moment by moment in a race. Unless you're in a team car right on someone's ass or at the track, that's not going to happen otherwise.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 11-25-13 at 03:00 PM.

  25. #75
    Super Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    why do you think this is?
    I actually think it's Lance Armstrong and power meters (which, ironically, really started with Lemond). There was an element of heart rate monitors but that was minor compared to the Lance/Power effect.

    Lance was the first rider to not race in order to get fit. We now know he was extracting blood, among other things, but that's beside the point. At the time people started to think that, oh, if I want to do well in a race, I need to train tons. Not race tons, train tons. They'd go and do the course or do massive training miles or something, something other than racing.

    Prior to that you "trained" in the off season to set a foundation, started racing to get speed work, and then raced yourself into shape. If you really, really, really wanted to do something serious you motor paced for a week to four weeks. You might have gone and done a week in the mountains or did a week of TT efforts or something, but really you got in shape by racing. Lemond would race but then he'd do some focused training, a week here, a week there. That was pretty normal back then.

    With HR monitors you started seeing the "fitness riders" who would stick by their schedule no matter what. "I can't go that fast, my HR will go too high" etc. You saw similar things with power but not the total lack of racing that the Lance era ushered into the world. HR riders were a bit more concerned with HR stuff but it was still within context of racing. TTs were now "get to 188 bpm and hold it", climbs were the same, but there was no HR stuff for field sprints - it was whatever you had to do. Riders would train religiously but then race on the weekend, even a few times (to clock enough high level effort on their HRMs).

    The thing about training is that it's easy to do. Anyone can work on numbers, watch them morph, chart progress. It teaches a rider to be strong but it does nothing to teach them how to race. It's not social, it requires focus on self. I could do this for bench pressing in my basement or for the bike or maybe for running.

    However if I focus solely on power then I will also see my limits. 210 watt FTP? Can't race. No hope. No chance. Best TT is 23.5 mph? Sorry, find another sport, like golf. Athletes from other sports, ones where teamwork really doesn't help (think swimming, running, duathletes, triathletes), they could really get into the numbers part but most duathletes/triathletes I've seen will forgo almost everything that has to do with actually racing (techniques, tactics, etc).

    Part of the fragility of today's Grand Tour contenders is that they no longer deal with the push and shove of the Classics, not like before. I understand that it costs money if your star hits the deck in April but a better racer may not have hit the deck. Lemond was one of the last racers to contest races throughout the year, a dabbling of Classics, a Grand Tour or two, and Worlds or the old World Cup thing (Super Pernod). He could deal with less than ideal road conditions. Heck, he accidentally took a tail light off of a motorcycle in the Tour du Pont (or was it Tour de Trump at the time?). He was tapping the motorcycle with his front wheel while the moto was taking video of the pack rolling along. Ask some of today's GT contenders to do that, for fun, just joshing around, and you'll have a rider sprawled on the pavement in no time.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

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