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  1. #101
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    And that stuff is absurd.

    There's no need for it and there shouldn't be a place for it.

    I absolutely don't think there should be any sort of "mindset" for it, either. Pulling sketchy moves and risky maneuvers is b.s. and WILL come back on you some day. It's not necessary to win and it isn't acceptable.

    Having confrontations post race? Come on. Why ride that way to begin with? Honestly, think about the reasoning. It's so silly.

    Winning (or the fight to win), is the only reason to compete at anything.

    Same goes for climbing corporate ladders, getting into a good college, or anything else that is given so much time, money and effort.

    Nobody said it can't be enjoyable and nobody said you have to play dirty. Just try to win.

    Without the proper "mindset", it ain't happenin'

  2. #102
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    I thought you were a hoods guy last time we went through this.
    I spend a lot of time in a lot of different positions. In crits I'm typically in the drops, more so the last year or so since I stretched my position out more.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    Winning (or the fight to win), is the only reason to compete at anything.

    Same goes for climbing corporate ladders, getting into a good college, or anything else that is given so much time, money and effort.

    Nobody said it can't be enjoyable and nobody said you have to play dirty. Just try to win.

    Without the proper "mindset", it ain't happenin'
    I agree.

    But if you're frequently having confrontations post-race, then I'd think a reexamination of what constitutes "dirty" might be necessary.

    Hooking and chopping and going for spots that clearly aren't there all in the name of "fighting for the win" is extreme at the least.

  4. #104
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    But if you're frequently having confrontations post-race, then I'd think a reexamination of what constitutes "dirty" might be necessary.

    Hooking and chopping and going for spots that clearly aren't there all in the name of "fighting for the win" is extreme at the least.
    Ha, well that wouldn't be me anymore, but it is what is required at higher levels.

    When I first started, I literally was shown the "dirty tricks" by those in the know.
    I have never taught anyone that crap, but the most victorious bike racers were not exactly saints.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    Ha, well that wouldn't be me anymore, but it is what is required at higher levels.

    When I first started, I literally was shown the "dirty tricks" by those in the know.
    I have never taught anyone that crap, but the most victorious bike racers were not exactly saints.

    I don't fully agree about the "requirement" aspect.

    And I absolutely don't agree about it being a requirement at the 1/2 level. You don't need to be dangerous to win.

  6. #106
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    I don't fully agree about the "requirement" aspect.

    And I absolutely don't agree about it being a requirement at the 1/2 level. You don't need to be dangerous to win.
    Well I shouldn't say requirement, but winning at this sport does expect a certain type of person.
    Kind of a wolf in sheep's clothing kinda thing.

  7. #107
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    BTW - to the OP,

    I hijacked the crap out of your thread.
    Hadn't been in for a visit with my "33" friends for quite a while.
    I'm sure you found your answer by now on drops, hoods, tops...

  8. #108
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    I actually think it's Lance Armstrong and power meters ....
    I agree completely with all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
    I got into cycling for fitness about five years ago.... I'm physically stronger but race-stupid, and will have to remain that way until I learn on my own because there is no alternative.
    ... but remember - there's no way for us to learn them but the school of hard knocks.
    Read my book. Please. You are the target audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Still, I don't really have a recollection of the good old days being safer, or faster or in any way better.
    I agree. They were never safer or faster, but I think they were a lot more tactical.

    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    And that stuff is absurd.

    There's no need for it and there shouldn't be a place for it.

    I absolutely don't think there should be any sort of "mindset" for it, either.
    It's not absurd. It's just the way they learned it.

    I think what you're seeing is a clash of generations. Old school vs New school. Those who learned to race in the 70s, 80s, and 90s bring a lot of those (what you would consider) "bad behaviors" with them, and guys who came up recently see it all as aggressive, mean, and unnecessary.
    For example, a guy that we race against here in Michigan is unafraid to hook you into the curb in order to block you from chasing his teammate. Guys who've been riding a while accept it as just another tactic. But new guys who weren't around in the 80s and 90s get all bent out of shape and want him DQ'd. They even yell! <gasp!>

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post

    It's not absurd. It's just the way they learned it.

    I think what you're seeing is a clash of generations. Old school vs New school. Those who learned to race in the 70s, 80s, and 90s bring a lot of those (what you would consider) "bad behaviors" with them, and guys who came up recently see it all as aggressive, mean, and unnecessary.
    For example, a guy that we race against here in Michigan is unafraid to hook you into the curb in order to block you from chasing his teammate. Guys who've been riding a while accept it as just another tactic. But new guys who weren't around in the 80s and 90s get all bent out of shape and want him DQ'd. They even yell! <gasp!>

    Hooking someone into a curb in order to block isn't absurd? In a P/1/2 race, that is exactly absurd. Why put someone in a situation like that? That's a dangerous move. And for what?

    How long do you need to be riding for? I don't see that many 1s and 2s that have been riding from the 80s and 90s. But if they are and still employing such tactics then sure, why should that be readily accepted?

    Why should outright dangerous, contemptuous and wholly unnecessary behavior be accepted?

    And no, it's not a requirement to win.

  10. #110
    Senior Member cannondale125's Avatar
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    YMCA. Yes I got my answer and some other interesting comments on this thread. Sorry guys I just had a simple question. Lol!! Thx to everyone you guys are all awesome.

  11. #111
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    I agree completely with all that.



    Read my book. Please. You are the target audience.



    I agree. They were never safer or faster, but I think they were a lot more tactical.



    It's not absurd. It's just the way they learned it.

    I think what you're seeing is a clash of generations. Old school vs New school. Those who learned to race in the 70s, 80s, and 90s bring a lot of those (what you would consider) "bad behaviors" with them, and guys who came up recently see it all as aggressive, mean, and unnecessary.
    For example, a guy that we race against here in Michigan is unafraid to hook you into the curb in order to block you from chasing his teammate. Guys who've been riding a while accept it as just another tactic. But new guys who weren't around in the 80s and 90s get all bent out of shape and want him DQ'd. They even yell! <gasp!>
    One of my co workers who raced in the 80's broke his back during a race when the lead rider on a break 'led' him into a pothole. The hole was big enough to stop him and he went face first into the ground. Would that be a legit tactic?

  12. #112
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    Anyway, the point of my tangential diatribe is this: if you have to employ dirty, dangerous tactics to be successful, then you're out of your league. I don't think new racers or people moving through the ranks should get the idea that there's some sort of "primal instinct kill or be killed" mindset necessary to win.

    It's not necessary. You don't have to dive in on people and throw elbows and everything else to upgrade to a 1 or 2. Get stronger, get better at positioning, and watch out for the guys with reckless abandon who'd rather end up in the ER than midpack. Hopefully they'll take themselves out at some point or get a good dose of their own medicine. You don't have to take such risks to do well.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    Read my book. Please. You are the target audience.
    How's Roadie going to help me learn how to race?

    J/K, I have a birthday coming up next month, I'll put it on the list.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    Hands near the stem on the tops of the bars and elbows pulled in has always been fastest for me on rather nontechnical descents.
    I find this true when in a tuck. Hands next to stem makes for a very stable position, albeit one that isn't ideal for unexpected events. I'll tuck while on the drops if I think something weird might happen (like in a big group or if I have no idea how the road goes).

    I will say that hoods are one of the worst places for descents. Easy to slip over the top, not enough braking power, can't get back very far without compromising grip… in general it's not ideal for dealing with unexpected situations, like a crash in front of you or a car pulling out, stuff like that. I watched a kid break his collarbone mainly because he couldn't slow or turn because he was on the hoods (the guy in front of him rolled his tire; the kid's bike bounced off my neck). He won the national 'cross and crit' championships next time around. He knows how to ride, he was just being careless and paid the price.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  15. #115
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
    How's Roadie going to help me learn how to race?

    J/K, I have a birthday coming up next month, I'll put it on the list.
    Roadie will help your family cope with your weirdness.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    The winner's list from L-B-L begs to differ, as does the finisher's list from Amstel. Front to back throw Lombardia in there and look at what Rodriguez did. Not a bad GT season either.

    Races like Flanders and Roubaix have become so specialized, I can't think of a GC guy that I'd pick as a strong favorite if they showed up there.
    LBL is more of a non-classics classic, simply because you have to climb well to win it. It's enough of a climber's race that the favorites include those that are not complete riders but just climbers.

    Lombardia is more along the lines of a classic, as is Flanders, PR, etc. Those are races that legit Grand Tour contenders could contest and even win, although that's back in the days of slightly less specialization. It's hard to classify true GT contenders because taking bags of blood out will take a rider out of form for a good week or two, and to get the 2-3 bags they've talked about for a GT you need a couple months to pull out blood. This knocks the guys out of some significant portion of the spring season, which may be why they were missing those events.

    I actually think of Rodriguez as an old school racer, ditto Nibali. From what I can see they can actually race.

    With true talent totally obscured I have no idea who would be a true GT type rider today that could contest a PR or a Flanders. I look at a Lemond or Hinault as the last of the non-EPO/boosted riders that won a GT. They could leverage their enormous FTP / VO2Max to be competitive in a wide range of events. They had the power to handle a PR. They could win a Lombardia. They could be in the mix in other Classics. I don't see that talent now, clearly superior compared to the others. In 1985 it was just them. In 1986 again, with Roche slotting up behind. 1989 started getting weird, with unusual guys making inroads. By 1990 it got a bit skewed, with guys like Indurain (version 2, as compared to the Indurain of previous years), Bugno, and Chiappuci getting into the mix.

    There's a lot of changes other than the racers. The UCI points system suddenly made lower places significant, especially when there was a "general rule" that one UCI point was worth $1000 in salary. If you didn't get some points you may not get paid as much. Etc etc. A long discussion.

    I finished my initial hijack response just before leaving for the team meeting. Now I'm typing a response just after Junior projectiled his day's intake. Now I need to clean up and go to bed.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  17. #117
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    As a new racer who bought the one day license, and may not have started otherwise, I'm thankful for it. I'd been riding a few years, so I could handle my bike well. I'd done a few group rides and new the basics. Just needed to focus on holding my line through the corners and the wheel in front at the same time (especially when the wheel in front is not holding their line). Need to focus on holding a wheel if someone tries to take it (but it seems cat 5s are scared to come too close). I'll probably do the clinics this year. What is it you would suggest be "tested" in order to race though?

    To paraphrase: from my (a new racers) perspective, the hard part is rding well enough in a fast, aggressive group to think about racing AND riding well in the group. But that is just group experience. What could be tested?
    Last edited by aaronmcd; 11-25-13 at 11:41 PM.

  18. #118
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    As a new racer who bought the one day license, and may not have started otherwise, I'm thankful for it. I'd been riding a few years, so I could handle my bike well. I'd done a few group rides and new the basics. Just needed to focus on holding my line through the corners and the wheel in front at the same time (especially when the wheel in front is not holding their line). Need to focus on holding a wheel if someone tries to take it (but it seems cat 5s are scared to come too close). I'll probably do the clinics this year. What is it you would suggest be "tested" in order to race though?

    To paraphrase: from my (a new racers) perspective, the hard part is rding well enough in a fast, aggressive group to think about racing AND riding well in the group. But that is just group experience. What could be tested?
    Not quite sure what you mean by tested. Most of it just comes down to experience and doing enough races, and being fit. When you are not constantly riding in z4/5 trying to hang on for dear life, you can evaluate situation more. Try doing early birds.

    UDR
    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
    Stay calm and bring a towel.

  19. #119
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Testing? There are lots of things to work on. I'd start with contact. Bumping drills at low speed. Once you can handle a little contact I would put you in a single pace line and try and steal your wheel using contact. Also, bottle pickup drills, bridging drills, rotating pace line in a small group. Take a look at CDRs clinic syllabus.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    Roadie will help your family cope with your weirdness.
    My youngest is 32 - too late. My wife gave up on me years ago, now she hangs around out of curiosity.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  21. #121
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Testing? There are lots of things to work on. I'd start with contact. Bumping drills at low speed. Once you can handle a little contact I would put you in a single pace line and try and steal your wheel using contact. Also, bottle pickup drills, bridging drills, rotating pace line in a small group. Take a look at CDRs clinic syllabus.
    shovelhd has given typical handling drills you'll find at skills clinics.

    I will add --> peloton dynamics, wind direction, accordion effects, checking your six, pedaling action, sitting on the bike comfortably at all speeds,

    and my favorite --> Being an associative rider (paying attention to surroundings, being aware of what's happening, not having your head buried)

    It is up to the mentors and knowledgeable to pass correct and helpful info onto the unknowing and disassociative. If their are people in groups with terrible fundamentals, then call them out. Sometimes gently, sometimes with a bit of piss and vinegar. Depends on the infraction.

  22. #122
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    I raced my first full year of racing last year here in Texas. I only raced about 20 races, but I still would love to attend some sort of clinic because my eyes were opened since the first race to the last race that I really don't know **** about racing. I would even be willing to travel out of state for something that would be beneficial.

  23. #123
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    There's always something to learn in this sport. So, crashing someone by accident is bad. Crashing someone on purpose is tactical.

  24. #124
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oespinoza83 View Post
    I raced my first full year of racing last year here in Texas. I only raced about 20 races, but I still would love to attend some sort of clinic because my eyes were opened since the first race to the last race that I really don't know **** about racing. I would even be willing to travel out of state for something that would be beneficial.
    Keep your eyes on http://www.drivewayaustin.com they have crit clinics a couple times/year. Things will get started again with Daylight Saving Time in March (the 13th will likely be the first DW races). The nice thing is that the course out there changes from crit to circuit, so you're getting closer to road race dynamics on the longer loops. Clinic is taught by guys who know racing and how to share it.

  25. #125
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oespinoza83 View Post
    I raced my first full year of racing last year here in Texas. I only raced about 20 races, but I still would love to attend some sort of clinic because my eyes were opened since the first race to the last race that I really don't know **** about racing. I would even be willing to travel out of state for something that would be beneficial.
    Yup, not much around here that I am aware of either,sad.

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