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  1. #176
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Read both quotes. I'm being snarky, but still as I said I genuinely don't understand crashing someone as being a tactic. In the case you posted, based on the fact that you started a fight with the guy, you don't seem to either.
    Ahhh that guy and I had a little history as he was a Belgian trained dude and he can't beat me head to head and he knew it (I smoked him the week before in the same position) but it's all good...
    You know me well enough to know I'm emotional
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  2. #177
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    Ahhh that guy and I had a little history as he was a Belgian trained dude and he can't beat me head to head and he knew it (I smoked him the week before in the same position) but it's all good...
    You know me well enough to know I'm dumb like a bag of rocks
    fixed it for you

  3. #178
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    fixed it for you
    Thank you, I was at a loss for words and you found the right one...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  4. #179
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    qwacky

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  5. #180
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    Ha.

    I've got 5 dammit!!
    and I've got more than you haha

    the things I mentioned are just a small set of drills in the clinic syllabus.

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    One thing I know with certainty is that if I get hung up on bumping and grinding for a wheel I've already lost the race.
    Now I see why rkwaki enjoys it...
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  7. #182
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    If you have low T, you are less likely to engage in bumping and grinding of all sorts.

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  8. #183
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    this is nothing but bravado. 95% of everyone I know would fail this test without any resistance. If someone is about to steer your bike with their hip on your bars, your options are limited.

    The rest of that stuff is good bike handling drills, but the issues seem to be that the minute the race gets stressful people lose their ability to think and just overreact. I think everyone learns via experience how to better stay calm and disconnect physical stress from the mental.
    It's not to teach anyone bad habits. There is a difference in taking contact at 15mph in an easy drill than at 25mph when you're working hard. That's the only reason it is done, to get the rider over the overthinking hump in a controlled setting.

  9. #184
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    It's not to teach anyone bad habits. There is a difference in taking contact at 15mph in an easy drill than at 25mph when you're working hard. That's the only reason it is done, to get the rider over the overthinking hump in a controlled setting.
    +1

    On my team rides we do things like this a lot. Our aim is to get our racers so comfortable on their bikes in every situation that something like this is like sitting at home in the easy chair. It makes them safer (and the race they are in safer) because they don't freak out, but it makes them more aggressive knowing that they have the skills to deal with all kinds of crap.
    I'm the world's forgotten boy. The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy.

  10. #185
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    Thank you for writing this paragraph. It gave me chills.

    Counter-steering and target fixation are probably the two most important things that a majority of racers don't know anything about.
    Idk.
    Everyone counter steers if they turn. It is physically impossible to turn a bike without counter steering. I guess people probably don't realize it.
    Idk about target fixation either. Supposedly people do it, but my first race there was a crash right in front of me and I dodged it before my brain registered what happened. That's the opposite of target fixation... Kinda like when your drink starts to fall and you grab for it before you know what you're doing. Automatic response.

    OTOH, wheel bumping is something I NEED to practice. No idea where and how, as I don't really know anyone to do it with, nor do I have a beater to do it on.
    Last edited by aaronmcd; 11-26-13 at 07:13 PM.

  11. #186
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    The first and only time I did bumping drills it was at low speed, but I was VERY surprised at how it doesn't affect balance.

    My first race this guy wanted my spot and just rode right into me from the side. He kinda bounced off and rode away. It was like he expects cat 5s to get scared and give away the spot.

    On staring at the wheel: That I understand, if the rider hasn't ever riden group/paceline before. The first time I rode paceline I was looking at the wheel a lot. I still look down every now and then to make sure what feels like 12" really IS 12". Recalibrate, I guess. But I can't see whats going on up the road/around me if I'm staring at a wheel. How can you race if you don't even know what's going on?
    Last edited by aaronmcd; 11-26-13 at 07:17 PM.

  12. #187
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    I'm with you on the countersteering thing - there is no such thing as turning a bike without it, and it puzzles me that that it's such a big deal to people. Seems like overthinking. But then, I have to think pretty carefully about what I'm doing to carve smooth turns on a pair of skis, so maybe thinking about the physics of what they're doing helps some people. But I simply disbelieve this notion that people might make literally the wrong steering motions on the handlebar if they don't know about countersteering. Anyone who would do that is known as "someone who can't ride a bike." And I mean at all, any distance, without falling over.

    I'm not with you on target fixation, however. It's an easily observable phenomenon. The lesson to be taken from it is simply to look through turns to where you want to go, and you'll find that much more effective than keep your head locked in line with the bike. People really do need to unlearn this. It doesn't mean that you can't look around at all, but that your focus should always be on where you want to go, not on what you want to avoid.

  13. #188
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    I was warned early on to not stare at the wheel in front because you could get HYPNOTIZED! (I don't know if that's technically true, but it wouldn't surprise me.) Anyway, we've been working with our juniors to focus on sighting through the jersey pockets of the rider in front and up the road. Everyone needs to be looking up the road as best he can at all times whether you're on the front or the back.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  14. #189
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    Mountain biking on technical terrain is an excellent way to understand and cure target fixation.

  15. #190
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    I'm with you on the countersteering thing - there is no such thing as turning a bike without it, and it puzzles me that that it's such a big deal to people. Seems like overthinking. But then, I have to think pretty carefully about what I'm doing to carve smooth turns on a pair of skis, so maybe thinking about the physics of what they're doing helps some people. But I simply disbelieve this notion that people might make literally the wrong steering motions on the handlebar if they don't know about countersteering. Anyone who would do that is known as "someone who can't ride a bike." And I mean at all, any distance, without falling over.

    I'm not with you on target fixation, however. It's an easily observable phenomenon. The lesson to be taken from it is simply to look through turns to where you want to go, and you'll find that much more effective than keep your head locked in line with the bike. People really do need to unlearn this. It doesn't mean that you can't look around at all, but that your focus should always be on where you want to go, not on what you want to avoid.
    Ah yes, gotcha. When I descend in paceline I notice it. While I don't stare at the wheel in front of me, I do tend to look too close and then catch myself when we start cornering. It takes focus if you haven't done it much.

  16. #191
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    I'm with you on the countersteering thing - there is no such thing as turning a bike without it, and it puzzles me that that it's such a big deal to people.
    I think it's good for some people to think about it so they can internalize it and don't have to think about it. Countersteering is not as complicated, but heel-toe shifting is along the same lines. At any rate, when I'm in a turn and someone crashes in front of me, I don't have to think about which bar to jam hard to try to avoid it. If I hadn't internalized countersteering, I would not be able to react in a fluid manner when I'm already cornering pretty hard.

  17. #192
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Hmm. I have to say, no part of my thinking when riding is ever about the mechanics of what I'm doing. I'm thinking, at most, "left," or "turn harder!" Or "brake." Except that I seldom am that verbal in my head. My thinking when I'm able to choose my own line through a turn is more geometric than anything else. So I scratch my head when people talk about which side of the bar to push on. I simply never consciously aware of how I'm manipulating the machine to make it turn, it just happens. Is that different than how other people ride? I've been complimented before on my "naturalness," I guess, on the bike, but I've also been called a good climber and that's baloney. I can't imagine turning a bike involving so much conscious engagement, any more than turning while running.

  18. #193
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    Everyone counter steers if they turn. It is physically impossible to turn a bike without counter steering. I guess people probably don't realize it.
    I didn't make myself clear. Sorry. I'm a horrible writer.

    We agree. I just said it wrong.

    What I meant to say is....

    I wish new riders would learn - and grasp - the mechanics/physics of turning (which includes a conscious knowledge of counter-steering). It removes the mystery of cornering, and it allows you to avoid a lot of trouble.

  19. #194
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    This thread was more fun when our cat 1's we're getting after it. Now that they're peacing out it's more like they're "only" 45+ers.

  20. #195
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    Be glad you guys have at least some form of cat / skill regulation. here theres no such thing. first race? you could join the elite/pro field if you wanted to.

  21. #196
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    Give them to jsut so he can shut the **** up...
    I have 4 points at the moment... I feel a bit short this season...
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    Mountain biking as fast as possible on technical terrain at night without a light but following someone with a light is an excellent way to understand and cure target fixation.
    This is how I learned for real. I thought I knew until we started riding "every other light on" on our night time mtb rides. This way we could ride longer than a set of batteries lasted (this was back in the days of 1.5-2 hour lights max).

    Night time mountain biking helped me a lot, especially since I had spot light type lights. I had a choice - aim down or aim up front. I had to aim up front because I'd override my headlight going 15 mph if it pointed down.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    On my own two feet, I'm awkward and clumsy. Yet I see lots of riders who don't seem to be listening to what their body is telling them. No doubt we all have different degrees of natural ability to interpret our kinesthetic senses and inner ear, but I think some part of successful instruction in riding a bike must be, deliberately or not, getting the rider to just pay attention to what it feels like to do something the right way.
    One of our shop jokes was someone said something about how can you tell who the bike racer is in the room? It's the klutz (and someone would act it out). We figured we all raced bikes because we couldn't do anything else well.

    I'm not athletic off the bike, not very coordinated, etc. I really like the fact that I can do a track stand because, frankly, I never thought I could. I can't do a lot of other things on a bike (wheelie anyone?) but for sure I can do a track stand. Track stands are good drills for learning how to move around on the bike. It gets you more in touch with the bike, you understand it more.

    Another favorite drill of mine is the sweeping your hand on the ground while riding one (or picking things up off the ground). I'm not flexible and I really can't reach the ground from the saddle with my feet but I can almost put my palm down on the road while I'm rolling along. Again, a drill that helps get more in touch with the bike.

    If I had a bunch of new racers to coach then on easy days I'd have them try to do Peter Sagan things, some/lots of which I can't do. It never hurts to be fluent on the bike.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  24. #199
    Super Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Testing? There are lots of things to work on. I'd start with contact. Bumping drills at low speed. Once you can handle a little contact I would put you in a single pace line and try and steal your wheel using contact. Also, bottle pickup drills, bridging drills, rotating pace line in a small group. Take a look at CDRs clinic syllabus.
    For those that don't know the clinic stuff is here.

    It's extremely limited due to the short amount of time we have (realistically 30 minutes each week). I'm considering lengthening the clinic time, or, at least for 4 weeks I may put a race between the clinic and the 5s (so the clinic can last until the end instead of ending 15 minutes early).

    A proper intro clinic would be 1-2 long days (5-6 hours?) or, better yet, an hour a day one or two days a week for a month or two.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  25. #200
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    Not to sound like a dick or anything but adjusting your fit because of "riding in the drops" is stupid. Go get a BG bike fit and then race whatever way feels comfortable and efficient. Although in crits, you should try and be in your drops.

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