Why did manufacturers move towards proprietary seatposts?
#1
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Why did manufacturers move towards proprietary seatposts?
I'm not really tuned into the bike industry from the POV of the manufacturers.
Bike components seem to be pretty mature. The systems are, for the most part, interchangeable (stems, bars, saddles, etc...). I know, for example, that you can't mix/match campy and shimano shifting systems, but you can remove a Campy system and replace it with Shimano.
So, why the move to proprietary seatposts? As a heavy guy that has had several proprietary posts slip/tilt during training and racing, they simply don't work as well as the standard 27.2 posts. I won't even consider buying a frame that doesn't use 27.2.
I guess that there are some aero benefits. But those benefits do not outweigh the drama caused when the post has slipping/tilting issues or needs to be replaced.
27.2 posts, like the reference Thomsons, have an amazing track record. Also, if you break a 27.2 post, you just go down to your local shop and buy another.
So, can someone explain why bike manufacturers insist on creating their own custom (and often inferior) seatposts?
Bike components seem to be pretty mature. The systems are, for the most part, interchangeable (stems, bars, saddles, etc...). I know, for example, that you can't mix/match campy and shimano shifting systems, but you can remove a Campy system and replace it with Shimano.
So, why the move to proprietary seatposts? As a heavy guy that has had several proprietary posts slip/tilt during training and racing, they simply don't work as well as the standard 27.2 posts. I won't even consider buying a frame that doesn't use 27.2.
I guess that there are some aero benefits. But those benefits do not outweigh the drama caused when the post has slipping/tilting issues or needs to be replaced.
27.2 posts, like the reference Thomsons, have an amazing track record. Also, if you break a 27.2 post, you just go down to your local shop and buy another.
So, can someone explain why bike manufacturers insist on creating their own custom (and often inferior) seatposts?
#4
LET'S ROLL
I test rode a 2014 Cannondale HiMod Synapse with a
25.4 SL-K carbon seatpost. I thought it was ok, and I
guess C'dale thought that post is lighter than a 27.2.
Happy Thanksgiving!
25.4 SL-K carbon seatpost. I thought it was ok, and I
guess C'dale thought that post is lighter than a 27.2.
Happy Thanksgiving!
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#5
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Also, the 1-bolt seat clamp systems that allow for minute adjustments, but are prone to tilting when "on the rivet". The 2-bolt systems don't tilt.
This is an example:
vs
Is it a game of ounces where they choose these posts because they use less metal hardware?
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that thompson post is way lighter than the specialized post, for whatever it's worth.
my foil has an aero-shaped proprietary post. all the non-round posts have more slipping problems because nothing clamps as well as the round tube with a round clamp. aero posts are front/back or just the sides clamped. area of pressure is decreased.
my foil has an aero-shaped proprietary post. all the non-round posts have more slipping problems because nothing clamps as well as the round tube with a round clamp. aero posts are front/back or just the sides clamped. area of pressure is decreased.
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I broke the seat post clamp on my Fuji the day before s stage race and had to make a new nut/bolt set up by hand sense I couldn't find a clamp locally. Pain in the ass, all in the name or aero
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that thompson post is way lighter than the specialized post, for whatever it's worth.
my foil has an aero-shaped proprietary post. all the non-round posts have more slipping problems because nothing clamps as well as the round tube with a round clamp. aero posts are front/back or just the sides clamped. area of pressure is decreased.
my foil has an aero-shaped proprietary post. all the non-round posts have more slipping problems because nothing clamps as well as the round tube with a round clamp. aero posts are front/back or just the sides clamped. area of pressure is decreased.
EVERY frame that I have owned that used a non-round seatpost had some slipping issues. At least 5 frames, including a few ultra-high end track "sprinter" frames. Every Single One.
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This isn't a "41" topic because of stories like this:
It's one thing to have seatpost issues in group ride. It's another to have a seatpost fail during a race.
It's one thing to have seatpost issues in group ride. It's another to have a seatpost fail during a race.
#12
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Honestly I bet you'd get more answers about this in the 41.. anyway, carry on.
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#14
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System Integration?
Grabbing a larger share of the total build cost/profit?
Increased vertical integration?
Already employed engineers trying to justify their continued salaries by "Overthinking" yet another bicycle component?
The UCI not letting the aforementioned engineers utilize their skills and talent on parts of the bicycle where it would really make a performance improvement?
Our collective resistance to integrated seatmasts that limit resale value once cut?
So, we get aero seatposts between our undulating thighs, in what is quite probably the dirtiest air around the entire bicycle,... That slip.
Grabbing a larger share of the total build cost/profit?
Increased vertical integration?
Already employed engineers trying to justify their continued salaries by "Overthinking" yet another bicycle component?
The UCI not letting the aforementioned engineers utilize their skills and talent on parts of the bicycle where it would really make a performance improvement?
Our collective resistance to integrated seatmasts that limit resale value once cut?
So, we get aero seatposts between our undulating thighs, in what is quite probably the dirtiest air around the entire bicycle,... That slip.
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System Integration?
Grabbing a larger share of the total build cost/profit?
Increased vertical integration?
Already employed engineers trying to justify their continued salaries by "Overthinking" yet another bicycle component?
The UCI not letting the aforementioned engineers utilize their skills and talent on parts of the bicycle where it would really make a performance improvement?
Our collective resistance to integrated seatmasts that limit resale value once cut?
So, we get aero seatposts between our undulating thighs, in what is quite probably the dirtiest air around the entire bicycle,... That slip.
Grabbing a larger share of the total build cost/profit?
Increased vertical integration?
Already employed engineers trying to justify their continued salaries by "Overthinking" yet another bicycle component?
The UCI not letting the aforementioned engineers utilize their skills and talent on parts of the bicycle where it would really make a performance improvement?
Our collective resistance to integrated seatmasts that limit resale value once cut?
So, we get aero seatposts between our undulating thighs, in what is quite probably the dirtiest air around the entire bicycle,... That slip.
Also, do you think that regular consumers simply aren't supporting (by buying) the manufacturers that are making solid frame/components that use standard dimensions? Or is it that, they are buying the hype about competitive the advantages of this or that minor thing being a big advantage, thus forcing the manufacturers to fake innovation in order to win the A vs B decisions by the consumers in the local shops? i.e.:
Bike A has a normal aluminum seatpost.
Bike B has a Carbon Aero seatpost.
I wonder how bike manufacturers got into this annual cycle of "innovation". Imagine being an engineer and being forced to innovate designs of a 200 year old, relatively simple machine...every year. It's this kind of thinking why we have razors with 5 blades and pizzas with cheese in the crusts.
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EXACTLY!
Also, do you think that regular consumers simply aren't supporting (by buying) the manufacturers that are making solid frame/components that use standard dimensions? Or is it that, they are buying the hype about competitive the advantages of this or that minor thing being a big advantage, thus forcing the manufacturers to fake innovation in order to win the A vs B decisions by the consumers in the local shops? i.e.:
Bike A has a normal aluminum seatpost.
Bike B has a Carbon Aero seatpost.
I wonder how bike manufacturers got into this annual cycle of "innovation". Imagine being an engineer and being forced to innovate designs of a 200 year old, relatively simple machine...every year. It's this kind of thinking why we have razors with 5 blades and pizzas with cheese in the crusts.
Also, do you think that regular consumers simply aren't supporting (by buying) the manufacturers that are making solid frame/components that use standard dimensions? Or is it that, they are buying the hype about competitive the advantages of this or that minor thing being a big advantage, thus forcing the manufacturers to fake innovation in order to win the A vs B decisions by the consumers in the local shops? i.e.:
Bike A has a normal aluminum seatpost.
Bike B has a Carbon Aero seatpost.
I wonder how bike manufacturers got into this annual cycle of "innovation". Imagine being an engineer and being forced to innovate designs of a 200 year old, relatively simple machine...every year. It's this kind of thinking why we have razors with 5 blades and pizzas with cheese in the crusts.
#18
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EXACTLY!
Also, do you think that regular consumers simply aren't supporting (by buying) the manufacturers that are making solid frame/components that use standard dimensions? Or is it that, they are buying the hype about competitive the advantages of this or that minor thing being a big advantage....
Also, do you think that regular consumers simply aren't supporting (by buying) the manufacturers that are making solid frame/components that use standard dimensions? Or is it that, they are buying the hype about competitive the advantages of this or that minor thing being a big advantage....
No matter how many times you, me or anyone else posts the graphs showing that the rider accounts for over 90% of the total drag and the wheels, and especially the front wheel, account for the vast majority of the remaining 10%, and that the seatpost is ultimately going to account for some infinitesimally small portion of the remaining fraction.
We still see deep aero sections and go,...."ahhhh" as if the Girl from Ipanema just walked by.
1. Performance gains from frame and component advancements are very limited and at best marginal. There was a pretty good article a couple years ago about GB Cyclings objective and quantifiable examination of potential performance influencers. Rider genetics, training, health (including mental), fitness and nutrition were the biggest determinent by far. The only reasons we saw resources trickle down to the component level were apparently: 1. Politics (moving some money in the right direction) and 2. An excess of funding that would allow such.
2. There was also an article a few years ago by a former bicycle engineer or marketing guy who took the then latest and greatest Specialized TT frame and all it's supposed "advancements" apart. Item by item he went through and explained how changes were made to minimize the number of molds required, reduce defect rates by making parts easier to mold, etc. and then how those changes were "sold" by the marketing department to us cyclists as "advancements".
I wouldn't want to be a bicycle engineer. I love the sport to much to do that.
How much extra weight and engineering cost is there to the stems and cranks of Time's latest and greatest "integrated" frame systems in order for them to sell "one size fits most" solutions at halo price points?
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#20
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After I posted that, one thing came to mind that can't be overlooked at the really high end of the game. And, that is mental state. For some athletes it's just as important to "think" that no stone has been left unturned and that they have every possible advantage in order to perform up to their potential. Regardless of whether some of those concerns actually provide a measurable improvement or not.
So, with that in mind, maybe dealing with increased cost and weight, decreased replacement options and slipping is a small price to pay for the very reall advantage that placebo can provide:-)
So, with that in mind, maybe dealing with increased cost and weight, decreased replacement options and slipping is a small price to pay for the very reall advantage that placebo can provide:-)
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skinnier posts usually flex a bit more, so that helps with perceived comfort on stiffer frames. posts with a bit of offset also help in that regard.
i am a fan of thomson posts, too, but compared to some other posts (particularly the thomson w/o setback) the ride is a bit more harsh.
that specialized post you show was designed to further reduce vibration. (in my experience they succeed at that...but i've still sold every specialized round post i've had -- they are SO heavy for what they do.)
i've spoken with some specialized engineers as to why they often have "heavy" posts on even $10k bikes (their s-works epic comes to mind). it's weird, but it does come down to hitting a price-point, and that is an area where they can save a bit of cost and minimally effect the performance of the bike.
#22
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specialized rarely (i say 'rarely' but no examples come to mind) designs a part to be the lightest weight.
skinnier posts usually flex a bit more, so that helps with perceived comfort on stiffer frames. posts with a bit of offset also help in that regard.
i am a fan of thomson posts, too, but compared to some other posts (particularly the thomson w/o setback) the ride is a bit more harsh.
that specialized post you show was designed to further reduce vibration. (in my experience they succeed at that...but i've still sold every specialized round post i've had -- they are SO heavy for what they do.)
i've spoken with some specialized engineers as to why they often have "heavy" posts on even $10k bikes (their s-works epic comes to mind). it's weird, but it does come down to hitting a price-point, and that is an area where they can save a bit of cost and minimally effect the performance of the bike.
skinnier posts usually flex a bit more, so that helps with perceived comfort on stiffer frames. posts with a bit of offset also help in that regard.
i am a fan of thomson posts, too, but compared to some other posts (particularly the thomson w/o setback) the ride is a bit more harsh.
that specialized post you show was designed to further reduce vibration. (in my experience they succeed at that...but i've still sold every specialized round post i've had -- they are SO heavy for what they do.)
i've spoken with some specialized engineers as to why they often have "heavy" posts on even $10k bikes (their s-works epic comes to mind). it's weird, but it does come down to hitting a price-point, and that is an area where they can save a bit of cost and minimally effect the performance of the bike.
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Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
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The seatposts weren't a comment on weight, but, on the development and inclussion of a feature (the single point anchor bolt) when a superior system already existed that doesn't suffer from an issue that the new system creates (lack of anglular stability when riding the rivet).
i am bolt-agnostic; i currently have a few bikes with 1-bolt posts and a few with 2-bolt setups. all else equal, a 1-bolt setup IS lighter. i find them a bit touchier to set up because multiple things can change at once, but i generally don't have a problem with the angle changing while riding if torqued properly. could be a function of my weight and riding style, though.
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My Speed Concept had its seat post fall in the middle of the race (Sprint Triathlon). It went down about an inch, I thought, 'I can deal with this', then it dropped all the way. They replaced the clamp (which 1.0 had this issue with all bikes) but it still drops about a quarter inch every week or so.
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My Speed Concept had its seat post fall in the middle of the race (Sprint Triathlon). It went down about an inch, I thought, 'I can deal with this', then it dropped all the way. They replaced the clamp (which 1.0 had this issue with all bikes) but it still drops about a quarter inch every week or so.