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  1. #1
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Transcendent Pain: Article by bicycling magazine. Interesting!

    http://www.bicycling.com/training-nu...ry-_-suffering

    "In which we dig deep into the history and the latest research of the revered art of suffering and discover some good news: You can always go harder. Or is that the bad news?"

    I thought it was a very interesting read, I think there's some truth in here. Thoughts gents?
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  2. #2
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    how painful is it to swim in Walden Pond in the winter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    how painful is it to swim in Walden Pond in the winter?
    Thoreau was a fake. Therefore it could have been very easy to swim in Walden Pond in the winter.

  4. #4
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I thought it was a very interesting read, I think there's some truth in here. Thoughts gents?
    Yes we agreed back in 2012 when it was published; I recall a thread about it
    "have fun and be kind"
    - an internet post

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    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    From both the premise of "you can always go harder" to the overall disjointed writing where he gives examples of the premise being wrong, it's not very well written. Actually it's a pretty poor piece from an editing standpoint.

    I've augured in physically enough (vomiting, running off the road with tunnel vision, Etc.) and done enough stuff while torn to shreds physically (raced with broken backs, ribs, separated shoulders, torn ankles Etc) to know when I quit vs. when my body quit.

    I couldn't always go harder.

    Feel free to pass that on to Mr. Gifford.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-29-13 at 06:54 PM.

  6. #6
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    From both the premise of "you can always go harder" to the overall disjointed writing where he gives examples of the premise being wrong, it's not very well written. Actually it's a pretty poor piece from an editing standpoint.

    I've augured in physically enough (vomiting, running off the road with tunnel vision, Etc.) and done enough stuff while torn to shreds physically (raced with broken backs, ribs, separated shoulders, torn ankles Etc) to know when I quit vs. when my body quit.

    I couldn't always go harder.

    Feel free to pass that on to Mr. Gifford.
    but wouldn't you say you've seen tons of people quit in a race where they've likely could of gone harder and stayed with the pack? I'm sure those people felt like they couldn't give anymore and were gassed. I think thats what the premise of the article was mostly about?
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

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    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    but wouldn't you say you've seen tons of people quit in a race where they've likely could of gone harder and stayed with the pack? I'm sure those people felt like they couldn't give anymore and were gassed. I think thats what the premise of the article was mostly about?
    I didn't watch them quit. I MADE them quit.

    They lost me at "you can always go harder".

    So it's "Some people are tough and can take a lot of pain and some people can't"?

    I know people that quit based on what their HRM says.

    Then I know guys like this:



    The guys I fear most are the guys who might not have the natural talent of the best but won't quit. Because the guys with more natural talent who won't quit I can't do anything about and the guys who might be super talented but have soft brains are pretty easy to destroy 9 times out of 10.

    I've been around a lot of different racing since I was a kid so aside from bugging me on a writer/editor level they are telling me water is wet. You might have as well asked me what I think of One Direction.

  8. #8
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Well, what do you think of one erection?

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    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Well, what do you think of one erection?
    Unicorns are metaphors.

  10. #10
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Paint on some rainbows...


  11. #11
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Rhinos are a bit too easy going for my taste.

  12. #12
    You blink and it's gone. rbart4506's Avatar
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    I love Monty Python, thanks for posting!
    "On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx

  13. #13
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Bleh. At a certain point, the worship of suffering in cycling culture ceased to have appeal to me, and then turned back on itself. From my point of view, there's so much crap out there about pain and suffering out there and it so dominates how "real" cyclists are supposed to view the sport that it drowns out almost any new or interesting thoughts on the sport. And this article just contributes to the fetish - you can always go harder, suffer more and you can be greater than you realized. That's what separates us from guys like Contador, etc. etc.

    It's an idea that deserves more critical examination. Yeah, Craig Lewis is one tough mofo to finish Colorado with an incompletely healed femur. Is the take away supposed to be that that's somehow good for him? We out such an emphasis on mental toughness and then completely neglect to temper it with self-knowledge or prudence. I want to be able to tough it out to my athletic limit, but also to know when persistence is only damaging my body and my prospects of healing. It's not the easiest balance to strike, we're not talking about easy, are we? Sometimes just continuing to push is easier than being smart.

    And there's just some flat-out bogus stuff there, too. Right on the front page. Like the idea that Voeckler is a lesser-talented rider, hanging on by dint of grit and persistence rather than physiological ability. That's baloney. The guy is one of the best talents in the peloton. Voeckler with a power meter and modern training methods would likely be a genuine podium contender in Grand Tours.

    Basically, I'm with RX. A lot of times, you could have gone harder. Unless you couldn't have. Duh.

    I'm so tired of the idea that racing is about suffering more than the other guy. It's not. Racing is about racing better than the other guy! This seems simple enough - if we're talking about racing, why are we suddenly switching to another verb? The ability to go really, really deep is a tool in the drawer, but it's just one of many.

  14. #14
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    Bleh. At a certain point, the worship of suffering in cycling culture ceased to have appeal to me, and then turned back on itself. From my point of view, there's so much crap out there about pain and suffering out there and it so dominates how "real" cyclists are supposed to view the sport that it drowns out almost any new or interesting thoughts on the sport. And this article just contributes to the fetish - you can always go harder, suffer more and you can be greater than you realized. That's what separates us from guys like Contador, etc. etc.

    It's an idea that deserves more critical examination. Yeah, Craig Lewis is one tough mofo to finish Colorado with an incompletely healed femur. Is the take away supposed to be that that's somehow good for him? We out such an emphasis on mental toughness and then completely neglect to temper it with self-knowledge or prudence. I want to be able to tough it out to my athletic limit, but also to know when persistence is only damaging my body and my prospects of healing. It's not the easiest balance to strike, we're not talking about easy, are we? Sometimes just continuing to push is easier than being smart.

    And there's just some flat-out bogus stuff there, too. Right on the front page. Like the idea that Voeckler is a lesser-talented rider, hanging on by dint of grit and persistence rather than physiological ability. That's baloney. The guy is one of the best talents in the peloton. Voeckler with a power meter and modern training methods would likely be a genuine podium contender in Grand Tours.

    Basically, I'm with RX. A lot of times, you could have gone harder. Unless you couldn't have. Duh.

    I'm so tired of the idea that racing is about suffering more than the other guy. It's not. Racing is about racing better than the other guy! This seems simple enough - if we're talking about racing, why are we suddenly switching to another verb? The ability to go really, really deep is a tool in the drawer, but it's just one of many.
    good post and insight!
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

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    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Tim Noakes has a theory about human physical performance in which we are controlled by a 'central governor' in the brain which essentially tells our body when to shut down. A physiological assessment of people driven to exhaustion shows no great muscle damage or imminent danger of death. It's generally a mental thing. Your brain stops you body well before you actually hurt yourself as a safety mechanism.

    Interestingly, when you do really hard workouts, you essentially train your brain as much as your body. You train your brain to recognise that high heart rates, levels of lactic acid, work output, etc are not going to kill yourself. The next time, your 'central governor' lets you go just a little deeper. Sooner or later, you reach a level of exertion that you don't/can't push through. It's generally a mental thing (by this theory). There is a physical maximum that people can reach, but it generally takes big adrenaline dumps to distract the governor and allow 'unsafe' levels of output.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

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    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I thought it was a very interesting read, I think there's some truth in here. Thoughts gents?
    I would like to know if you are experiencing amnesia, if you are dense, or something else? I normally don't like to be harsh toward beginners, especially since it's good to revisit some topics from time to time so that all of us can be reminded of certain things that we forget, but you seem to be abusing the handwringing, considering that you started the following thread four months ago. All of the comments in that thread applies to this one as well as last I checked, no ground breaking research has been reported since you started that thread!

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Physiological
    Last edited by echappist; 12-30-13 at 09:41 AM.

  17. #17
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    I would like to know if you are experiencing amnesia, if you are dense, or something else? I normally don't like to be harsh toward beginners, especially since it's good to revisit some topics from time to time so that all of us can be reminded of certain things that we forget, but you seem to be abusing the handwringing, considering that you started the following thread four months ago. All of the comments in that thread applies to this one as well as last I checked, no ground breaking research has been reported since you started that thread!

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Physiological
    I remember that thread, I was just referencing this article in this thread to get opinions on the article and some of the ideas presented by Noakes.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Sooner or later, you reach a level of exertion that you don't/can't push through. .
    Thats the thing alot of people don't understand. On one hand the average person gives up well before they really need to but on the other they watch people like professional athletes and ask "why didn't they just push a little harder?" There is a point where you can't go on. Most people give up well before that but there are those who know where that line is.

  19. #19
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I remember that thread, I was just referencing this article in this thread to get opinions on the article and some of the ideas presented by Noakes.
    Which, if you bothered to look, was discussed in that thread, and a pubmed article was even provided...

  20. #20
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    Which, if you bothered to look, was discussed in that thread, and a pubmed article was even provided...
    ok i surrender, my bad

    Chalk it up to 41 not using the search feature
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  21. #21
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Tim Noakes has a theory about human physical performance in which we are controlled by a 'central governor' in the brain which essentially tells our body when to shut down. A physiological assessment of people driven to exhaustion shows no great muscle damage or imminent danger of death. It's generally a mental thing. Your brain stops you body well before you actually hurt yourself as a safety mechanism.

    Interestingly, when you do really hard workouts, you essentially train your brain as much as your body. You train your brain to recognise that high heart rates, levels of lactic acid, work output, etc are not going to kill yourself. The next time, your 'central governor' lets you go just a little deeper. Sooner or later, you reach a level of exertion that you don't/can't push through. It's generally a mental thing (by this theory). There is a physical maximum that people can reach, but it generally takes big adrenaline dumps to distract the governor and allow 'unsafe' levels of output.
    See this one? Covers similar territory, but less fetishization of suffering.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/sp...ted=print&_r=0

  22. #22
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therhodeo View Post
    Thats the thing alot of people don't understand. On one hand the average person gives up well before they really need to but on the other they watch people like professional athletes and ask "why didn't they just push a little harder?" There is a point where you can't go on. Most people give up well before that but there are those who know where that line is.

    I always get a kick out of (bad) racecar movies. Inevitably (sometimes many times), they show a shot of the driver's feet. When they get 'real serious' they jam the throttle all the way to the floor. This is absurd because _everyone's_ foot was already to the floor. Going fast in a racecar has precious little to do with the willingness to hold the throttle open.

    In more physical pro sports, I think the average person does not get how hard the competitors are actually going. Professional sports are not 'fun'.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  23. #23
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    That's a good article on Robic. He died with all those demons fully intact. Sad.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  24. #24
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I always get a kick out of (bad) racecar movies. Inevitably (sometimes many times), they show a shot of the driver's feet. When they get 'real serious' they jam the throttle all the way to the floor. This is absurd because _everyone's_ foot was already to the floor. Going fast in a racecar has precious little to do with the willingness to hold the throttle open.

    In more physical pro sports, I think the average person does not get how hard the competitors are actually going. Professional sports are not 'fun'.
    And in amateur cycling as well. I know my first instinct when I'm dying and someone passes me is "damn, this guy isn't even hurting!" Then I check reality, realize he is hurting probably more than me, and that gives me the extra mental capacity to push harder.

    Sometimes, when I'm in a ton of pain, and the guy in front of me starts losing the wheel, I put on a poker face, calm my breathing, dig deeper and pass him while giving him the "hey friend, isn't this a swell day for a leisurely, scenic bike ride" face. I hope it makes him hurt more. (oh, and bonus: it makes me feel even better)

  25. #25
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    I didn't read the article. The premise sounds like BS. We can open up a can of worms about Tom Simpson and Ventoux, but that is more of a 217 thing.

    As for the comment about really hard training efforts training the brain along with the body I totally agree.
    I'm the world's forgotten boy. The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy.

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