Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-28-13, 07:12 PM   #1
ovoleg
Powered by Borscht
Thread Starter
 
ovoleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Russian Vodka
Posts: 8,344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Transcendent Pain: Article by bicycling magazine. Interesting!

http://www.bicycling.com/training-nu...ry-_-suffering

"In which we dig deep into the history and the latest research of the revered art of suffering and discover some good news: You can always go harder. Or is that the bad news?"

I thought it was a very interesting read, I think there's some truth in here. Thoughts gents?
ovoleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-13, 09:24 PM   #2
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,709
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
how painful is it to swim in Walden Pond in the winter?
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 06:30 PM   #3
rapwithtom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by echappist View Post
how painful is it to swim in Walden Pond in the winter?
Thoreau was a fake. Therefore it could have been very easy to swim in Walden Pond in the winter.
rapwithtom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 06:33 PM   #4
Creakyknees
ride lots be safe
 
Creakyknees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Bikes:
Posts: 5,185
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
I thought it was a very interesting read, I think there's some truth in here. Thoughts gents?
Yes we agreed back in 2012 when it was published; I recall a thread about it
Creakyknees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 07:48 PM   #5
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,481
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
From both the premise of "you can always go harder" to the overall disjointed writing where he gives examples of the premise being wrong, it's not very well written. Actually it's a pretty poor piece from an editing standpoint.

I've augured in physically enough (vomiting, running off the road with tunnel vision, Etc.) and done enough stuff while torn to shreds physically (raced with broken backs, ribs, separated shoulders, torn ankles Etc) to know when I quit vs. when my body quit.

I couldn't always go harder.

Feel free to pass that on to Mr. Gifford.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-29-13 at 07:54 PM.
Racer Ex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 07:55 PM   #6
ovoleg
Powered by Borscht
Thread Starter
 
ovoleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Russian Vodka
Posts: 8,344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
From both the premise of "you can always go harder" to the overall disjointed writing where he gives examples of the premise being wrong, it's not very well written. Actually it's a pretty poor piece from an editing standpoint.

I've augured in physically enough (vomiting, running off the road with tunnel vision, Etc.) and done enough stuff while torn to shreds physically (raced with broken backs, ribs, separated shoulders, torn ankles Etc) to know when I quit vs. when my body quit.

I couldn't always go harder.

Feel free to pass that on to Mr. Gifford.
but wouldn't you say you've seen tons of people quit in a race where they've likely could of gone harder and stayed with the pack? I'm sure those people felt like they couldn't give anymore and were gassed. I think thats what the premise of the article was mostly about?
ovoleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 08:17 PM   #7
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,481
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
but wouldn't you say you've seen tons of people quit in a race where they've likely could of gone harder and stayed with the pack? I'm sure those people felt like they couldn't give anymore and were gassed. I think thats what the premise of the article was mostly about?
I didn't watch them quit. I MADE them quit.

They lost me at "you can always go harder".

So it's "Some people are tough and can take a lot of pain and some people can't"?

I know people that quit based on what their HRM says.

Then I know guys like this:


The guys I fear most are the guys who might not have the natural talent of the best but won't quit. Because the guys with more natural talent who won't quit I can't do anything about and the guys who might be super talented but have soft brains are pretty easy to destroy 9 times out of 10.

I've been around a lot of different racing since I was a kid so aside from bugging me on a writer/editor level they are telling me water is wet. You might have as well asked me what I think of One Direction.
Racer Ex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 09:05 PM   #8
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well, what do you think of one erection?
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 09:28 PM   #9
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,481
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Well, what do you think of one erection?
Unicorns are metaphors.
Racer Ex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-13, 11:39 PM   #10
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Paint on some rainbows...

waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 12:20 AM   #11
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,481
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Rhinos are a bit too easy going for my taste.
Racer Ex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 07:44 AM   #12
rbart4506 
You blink and it's gone.
 
rbart4506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dundas, Ontario
Bikes: Race bike, training bike, go fast bike and a trainer slave.
Posts: 4,436
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I love Monty Python, thanks for posting!
__________________
"On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx
rbart4506 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 10:03 AM   #13
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,209
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Bleh. At a certain point, the worship of suffering in cycling culture ceased to have appeal to me, and then turned back on itself. From my point of view, there's so much crap out there about pain and suffering out there and it so dominates how "real" cyclists are supposed to view the sport that it drowns out almost any new or interesting thoughts on the sport. And this article just contributes to the fetish - you can always go harder, suffer more and you can be greater than you realized. That's what separates us from guys like Contador, etc. etc.

It's an idea that deserves more critical examination. Yeah, Craig Lewis is one tough mofo to finish Colorado with an incompletely healed femur. Is the take away supposed to be that that's somehow good for him? We out such an emphasis on mental toughness and then completely neglect to temper it with self-knowledge or prudence. I want to be able to tough it out to my athletic limit, but also to know when persistence is only damaging my body and my prospects of healing. It's not the easiest balance to strike, we're not talking about easy, are we? Sometimes just continuing to push is easier than being smart.

And there's just some flat-out bogus stuff there, too. Right on the front page. Like the idea that Voeckler is a lesser-talented rider, hanging on by dint of grit and persistence rather than physiological ability. That's baloney. The guy is one of the best talents in the peloton. Voeckler with a power meter and modern training methods would likely be a genuine podium contender in Grand Tours.

Basically, I'm with RX. A lot of times, you could have gone harder. Unless you couldn't have. Duh.

I'm so tired of the idea that racing is about suffering more than the other guy. It's not. Racing is about racing better than the other guy! This seems simple enough - if we're talking about racing, why are we suddenly switching to another verb? The ability to go really, really deep is a tool in the drawer, but it's just one of many.
grolby is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 10:07 AM   #14
ovoleg
Powered by Borscht
Thread Starter
 
ovoleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Russian Vodka
Posts: 8,344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Bleh. At a certain point, the worship of suffering in cycling culture ceased to have appeal to me, and then turned back on itself. From my point of view, there's so much crap out there about pain and suffering out there and it so dominates how "real" cyclists are supposed to view the sport that it drowns out almost any new or interesting thoughts on the sport. And this article just contributes to the fetish - you can always go harder, suffer more and you can be greater than you realized. That's what separates us from guys like Contador, etc. etc.

It's an idea that deserves more critical examination. Yeah, Craig Lewis is one tough mofo to finish Colorado with an incompletely healed femur. Is the take away supposed to be that that's somehow good for him? We out such an emphasis on mental toughness and then completely neglect to temper it with self-knowledge or prudence. I want to be able to tough it out to my athletic limit, but also to know when persistence is only damaging my body and my prospects of healing. It's not the easiest balance to strike, we're not talking about easy, are we? Sometimes just continuing to push is easier than being smart.

And there's just some flat-out bogus stuff there, too. Right on the front page. Like the idea that Voeckler is a lesser-talented rider, hanging on by dint of grit and persistence rather than physiological ability. That's baloney. The guy is one of the best talents in the peloton. Voeckler with a power meter and modern training methods would likely be a genuine podium contender in Grand Tours.

Basically, I'm with RX. A lot of times, you could have gone harder. Unless you couldn't have. Duh.

I'm so tired of the idea that racing is about suffering more than the other guy. It's not. Racing is about racing better than the other guy! This seems simple enough - if we're talking about racing, why are we suddenly switching to another verb? The ability to go really, really deep is a tool in the drawer, but it's just one of many.
good post and insight!
ovoleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 10:11 AM   #15
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Tim Noakes has a theory about human physical performance in which we are controlled by a 'central governor' in the brain which essentially tells our body when to shut down. A physiological assessment of people driven to exhaustion shows no great muscle damage or imminent danger of death. It's generally a mental thing. Your brain stops you body well before you actually hurt yourself as a safety mechanism.

Interestingly, when you do really hard workouts, you essentially train your brain as much as your body. You train your brain to recognise that high heart rates, levels of lactic acid, work output, etc are not going to kill yourself. The next time, your 'central governor' lets you go just a little deeper. Sooner or later, you reach a level of exertion that you don't/can't push through. It's generally a mental thing (by this theory). There is a physical maximum that people can reach, but it generally takes big adrenaline dumps to distract the governor and allow 'unsafe' levels of output.
Fat Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 10:30 AM   #16
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,709
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
I thought it was a very interesting read, I think there's some truth in here. Thoughts gents?
I would like to know if you are experiencing amnesia, if you are dense, or something else? I normally don't like to be harsh toward beginners, especially since it's good to revisit some topics from time to time so that all of us can be reminded of certain things that we forget, but you seem to be abusing the handwringing, considering that you started the following thread four months ago. All of the comments in that thread applies to this one as well as last I checked, no ground breaking research has been reported since you started that thread!

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Physiological

Last edited by echappist; 12-30-13 at 10:41 AM.
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 10:58 AM   #17
ovoleg
Powered by Borscht
Thread Starter
 
ovoleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Russian Vodka
Posts: 8,344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by echappist View Post
I would like to know if you are experiencing amnesia, if you are dense, or something else? I normally don't like to be harsh toward beginners, especially since it's good to revisit some topics from time to time so that all of us can be reminded of certain things that we forget, but you seem to be abusing the handwringing, considering that you started the following thread four months ago. All of the comments in that thread applies to this one as well as last I checked, no ground breaking research has been reported since you started that thread!

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Physiological
I remember that thread, I was just referencing this article in this thread to get opinions on the article and some of the ideas presented by Noakes.
ovoleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 11:20 AM   #18
therhodeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tulsa OK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,949
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
Sooner or later, you reach a level of exertion that you don't/can't push through. .
Thats the thing alot of people don't understand. On one hand the average person gives up well before they really need to but on the other they watch people like professional athletes and ask "why didn't they just push a little harder?" There is a point where you can't go on. Most people give up well before that but there are those who know where that line is.
therhodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 11:42 AM   #19
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,709
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
I remember that thread, I was just referencing this article in this thread to get opinions on the article and some of the ideas presented by Noakes.
Which, if you bothered to look, was discussed in that thread, and a pubmed article was even provided...
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 11:53 AM   #20
ovoleg
Powered by Borscht
Thread Starter
 
ovoleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Russian Vodka
Posts: 8,344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by echappist View Post
Which, if you bothered to look, was discussed in that thread, and a pubmed article was even provided...
ok i surrender, my bad

Chalk it up to 41 not using the search feature
ovoleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 11:56 AM   #21
Wesley36
Senior Member
 
Wesley36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
Tim Noakes has a theory about human physical performance in which we are controlled by a 'central governor' in the brain which essentially tells our body when to shut down. A physiological assessment of people driven to exhaustion shows no great muscle damage or imminent danger of death. It's generally a mental thing. Your brain stops you body well before you actually hurt yourself as a safety mechanism.

Interestingly, when you do really hard workouts, you essentially train your brain as much as your body. You train your brain to recognise that high heart rates, levels of lactic acid, work output, etc are not going to kill yourself. The next time, your 'central governor' lets you go just a little deeper. Sooner or later, you reach a level of exertion that you don't/can't push through. It's generally a mental thing (by this theory). There is a physical maximum that people can reach, but it generally takes big adrenaline dumps to distract the governor and allow 'unsafe' levels of output.
See this one? Covers similar territory, but less fetishization of suffering.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/sp...ted=print&_r=0
Wesley36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 12:43 PM   #22
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by therhodeo View Post
Thats the thing alot of people don't understand. On one hand the average person gives up well before they really need to but on the other they watch people like professional athletes and ask "why didn't they just push a little harder?" There is a point where you can't go on. Most people give up well before that but there are those who know where that line is.

I always get a kick out of (bad) racecar movies. Inevitably (sometimes many times), they show a shot of the driver's feet. When they get 'real serious' they jam the throttle all the way to the floor. This is absurd because _everyone's_ foot was already to the floor. Going fast in a racecar has precious little to do with the willingness to hold the throttle open.

In more physical pro sports, I think the average person does not get how hard the competitors are actually going. Professional sports are not 'fun'.
Fat Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 01:04 PM   #23
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That's a good article on Robic. He died with all those demons fully intact. Sad.
Fat Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 02:26 PM   #24
aaronmcd
Senior Member
 
aaronmcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Bikes: Cervelo S5
Posts: 2,420
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
I always get a kick out of (bad) racecar movies. Inevitably (sometimes many times), they show a shot of the driver's feet. When they get 'real serious' they jam the throttle all the way to the floor. This is absurd because _everyone's_ foot was already to the floor. Going fast in a racecar has precious little to do with the willingness to hold the throttle open.

In more physical pro sports, I think the average person does not get how hard the competitors are actually going. Professional sports are not 'fun'.
And in amateur cycling as well. I know my first instinct when I'm dying and someone passes me is "damn, this guy isn't even hurting!" Then I check reality, realize he is hurting probably more than me, and that gives me the extra mental capacity to push harder.

Sometimes, when I'm in a ton of pain, and the guy in front of me starts losing the wheel, I put on a poker face, calm my breathing, dig deeper and pass him while giving him the "hey friend, isn't this a swell day for a leisurely, scenic bike ride" face. I hope it makes him hurt more. (oh, and bonus: it makes me feel even better)
aaronmcd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-13, 02:56 PM   #25
mollusk
Elite Fred
 
mollusk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edge City
Bikes: 2009 Spooky (cracked frame), 2006 Curtlo, 2002 Lemond (current race bike) Zurich, 1987 Serotta Colorado, 1986 Cannondale for commuting, a 1984 Cannondale on loan to my son
Posts: 10,761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I didn't read the article. The premise sounds like BS. We can open up a can of worms about Tom Simpson and Ventoux, but that is more of a 217 thing.

As for the comment about really hard training efforts training the brain along with the body I totally agree.
mollusk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:21 AM.