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  1. #2601
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    You gotta defend those wheels.
    that's why I'm doing "uncomfortable" races. it's a proactive strategy.

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  2. #2602
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    that's why I'm doing "uncomfortable" races. it's a proactive strategy.
    I'm sure there is a mid-season race clinic you could do
    Cat 2 upgrade status: never

  3. #2603
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    yeah. they are called Red Kite and you get points if you show enough ability!

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  4. #2604
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    CCCX 2/3 race. 2nd/15.

    Interesting finish in that we were to race 75 minutes. The judge at the line showed us 2 to go. We get to the line and my breakmate (2 man move for 30min) starts sprinting. I start yelling at him "1 to go" and then I'm like "eh, he's trying to solo" so I settle in. We get to the line and the judge is there with a card reading "1" and breakmate looks at me and I'm like "yeah, your a ****ing idiot."

    I attack him, I solo for the lap and win by 60s with him chasing the whole way. Get to the end and the judge was like "sorry, you did an extra lap. race was over last lap."

    I argue that the sign is still there, on the table, with the "1" on it. Why were you holding it? It was a 75 min race and we finished at 73 min ont he "extra" lap. A bunch of weak excuses and mumbling. Basically he just screwed the pooch. I know this guy, I'm not out to make a scene but I'm definitely pissed. I don't know for certain I'd have won, but I would have liked to try.

    I know my breakmate too. Friends with him. **** it. 2nd it is. 2 more points.



    CCCx p12 6th/13.

    2 Domestic Pros are there. Great. Whistle blows, pros go, as we're all desperately chasing we basically end up with the 2 of them OTF and 4 of us (one, my very strong c1 teammate) in a chase. Everyone else is long gone. We aren't catching the 2 up the road, but my teammate is ****ing me over. Seriously, like attacking after I just pulled, etc. I am like WTF. Turns out he agreed to give another super-strong c1 in our move 3rd for some points series they care about. 4th guy in the group is the guy I carpooled with. I let him have 5th after the 2 extra-strong cat 1s got away (my own "teammate" attacking us to get the gap.)

    ******' eh. I'm livid. I worked for that dude, sitting in boring ass chase groups covering moves and giving up any chance I had to place so breaks he was in could stay away. Just typing it makes me angry.
    Last edited by Ygduf; 08-03-14 at 12:20 AM.

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  5. #2605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    CCCX 2/3 race. 2nd/15.

    Interesting finish in that we were to race 75 minutes. The judge at the line showed us 2 to go. We get to the line and my breakmate (2 man move for 30min) starts sprinting. I start yelling at him "1 to go" and then I'm like "eh, he's trying to solo" so I settle in. We get to the line and the judge is there with a card reading "1" and breakmate looks at me and I'm like "yeah, your a ****ing idiot."

    I attack him, I solo for the lap and win by 60s with him chasing the whole way. Get to the end and the judge was like "sorry, you did an extra lap. race was over last lap."

    I argue that the sign is still there, on the table, with the "1" on it. Why were you holding it? It was a 75 min race and we finished at 73 min ont he "extra" lap. A bunch of weak excuses and mumbling. Basically he just screwed the pooch. I know this guy, I'm not out to make a scene but I'm definitely pissed. I don't know for certain I'd have won, but I would have liked to try.

    I know my breakmate too. Friends with him. **** it. 2nd it is. 2 more points.



    CCCx p12 6th/13.

    2 Domestic Pros are there. Great. Whistle blows, pros go, as we're all desperately chasing we basically end up with the 2 of them OTF and 4 of us (one, my very strong c1 teammate) in a chase. Everyone else is long gone. We aren't catching the 2 up the road, but my teammate is ****ing me over. Seriously, like attacking after I just pulled, etc. I am like WTF. Turns out he agreed to give another super-strong c1 in our move 3rd for some points series they care about. 4th guy in the group is the guy I carpooled with. I let him have 5th after the 2 extra-strong cat 1s got away (my own "teammate" attacking us to get the gap.)

    ******' eh. I'm livid. I worked for that dude, sitting in boring ass chase groups covering moves and giving up any chance I had to place so breaks he was in could stay away. Just typing it makes me angry.
    Nice job! Good thing you still got 2nd, I can't imagine how pissed I would be if it had been a larger group.

    The announcers and the guys with lap cards often screw things up knowing who is OTF. I had the same problem at Foothill (although it was 4 to go, not 1 to go, so not nearly as disastrous). The guys scoring the races seem to know what is going on but not the guys holding the cards. Maybe this is the problem with multiple races on the course at the same time. CCCX is also notorious for NOT pulling people that are off the back and letting them finish.

    As for your teammate, something always seemed off to me with that guy.

  6. #2606
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigo View Post
    The announcers and the guys with lap cards often screw things up knowing who is OTF. I had the same problem at Foothill (although it was 4 to go, not 1 to go, so not nearly as disastrous). The guys scoring the races seem to know what is going on but not the guys holding the cards. Maybe this is the problem with multiple races on the course at the same time. CCCX is also notorious for NOT pulling people that are off the back and letting them finish.

    I neglected to mention in the p12 we were doing like 14 minute (I refused to work as soon as it was clear I was being screwed) laps for a 90 minute race. At min 60 he tells us 4 to go and we're all checking the clock and being like 90 minutes is going to take 105...

    We go around and now it's 2 to go. smh.

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  7. #2607
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Let me tell you how it's supposed to work from the blue shirt perspective. This stuff isn't in the rulebook, it's in the Official's Manual, so I would suspect some do not know this.

    The person with the bell and the lap cards is called a scorer not a judge. Their job is to flip the lap cards, ring the bell, and score as many riders as they can. In the Northeast, this position is usually held by the Chief Referee for smaller races, but it could also be held by an Assistant Referee. For now we'll just call him the scorer, or potentially in your case, the screwer.

    The lap cards are supposed to be flipped as soon as the leaders come into sight, no sooner, no later. Since there is supposed to be at least 200m of clear road before the finish, they should be flipped before you can see them. The scorer is also supposed to give a secondary indication for the last lap, which is the bell. They may also give an additional indication, such as their index finger in the air, or by shouting "one to go". It is important for all riders to pay attention to all indicators, because this is where it gets messy if there is a discrepancy. The decision of the Chief Referee is final for that day, but we'll talk about recourse later. However, if the indicators do not agree, then the bell is supposed to be the one that wins out over the lap cards. It's too easy to screw up the lap cards but when you ring the bell, you ring the bell. If the scorer rings the bell early, well too bad for the riders, it's the last lap. Sometimes a scorer will ring the bell early for a reason, like an impeding thunderstorm. The cards should agree with the bell, but always go by the bell. By rule, the cards should read "0" on the final sprint, but as long as you got the bell, that's the last lap. Some lap cards don't have a "0" so it may still be showing "1" after the finish.

    So the question is, did you get the bell, or any additional indicator, with the lap cards showing "2"? If so, then you got a learning experience. If not, then you got screwed.

    So what should you have done? Once the results are posted, you have 15 minutes to lodge a protest, which should be directed to the Chief Judge, who should be at the finish line. Results protests do not have to be in writing and do not incur a fee. State your case calmly and clearly. The official should respond to you calmly and clearly. The decision of the Chief Referee is final, so if the Chief Judge cannot be swayed, ask for appeal to the Chief Referee. If they all agree, then that's the deal, bro. You can always file a written protest or just send a carefully crafted letter to USAC. It may not change any results but USAC would like to know if the officials screwed up. We are human. We make mistakes. The #1 guiding principle in cycling officiating is fundamental fairness for every competitor. We want to get it right every time.
    Last edited by shovelhd; 08-03-14 at 07:17 AM.

  8. #2608
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    BTW, if you keep dominating tiny races like this one, you will be a Cat1 in no time.

  9. #2609
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    It is super valuable to have a blue shirt among us, thanks shovelhd!

    I wonder if there's anybody who's been racing for any length of time who hasn't had to protest a finish. I've gone through at least 5 of these in the past year. All but one was resolved properly IMO (which doesn't necessarily mean resolved in the riders' favor); the exception was a real clown show last year where eventually the officials threw up their hands, scored the top 6 correctly and gave the entire rest of the field (18 guys) 7th place.
    Last edited by globecanvas; 08-03-14 at 08:00 AM.

  10. #2610
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    I think it's just part of racing. Since 08 I have had to protest maybe 3 finishes. There have been a few other finishes that were in error, but at the time I didn't protest because I was either too far back for it to matter, or I did not know until well after the 15 minutes were up. The most complex one was where they missed me at Fitchburg, and scored a DNF. This meant I could not start the following day so I spent quite a bit of time that night calling people on the phone and trading emails until I finally got it straightened out.

    All in all, however, this only represents a small percentage of the total number of races I have attended, which is probably well over 100.

  11. #2611
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    Just off the top of my head, and this is only from the past 12 months. These are all USAC officials. I'm sure everybody has tons of stories like this. I think I was only the protester in one of these situations, but they all affected me.


    - Completely random out of order lap cards shown (I think the cards had 2 sides and the scorer was looking at the back), bell rung with the card showing 5 to go. Resolution: the bell lap was the bell lap.

    - Random incorrect results were posted, everybody protested, officials reviewed the finish line camera and upheld the results to general uproar. Somebody noticed that the bib numbers were right but the names were all wrong, but the scorers said that had nothing to do with them and were overwhelmed with other fields anyway. Registration had somehow got all the bib numbers off by one when mapping to racers. Resolution: results were corrected two months later.

    - Another case of random incorrect results posted, everybody protested, scorers upheld the results and were very pissy about it, finally somebody noticed the runner from the scorers' table to the result board (who was an official, but not a scorer) had accidentally posted the start list, so the scorers and the racers were not looking at the same thing. Resolution: somebody posted the correct list, though the scorers never actually got the information that the wrong list was posted so they just thought all the racers were idiots.

    - Lead vehicle missed the turn to the finish straight, some guys followed the car and some guys made the correct turn. Resolution: too bad if you followed the car.

    - Total scorer fail, they were napping or something at the finish, did not write down numbers, finish line camera not running. Resolution: after an hour or so of debate, they scored the top 6 correctly by just going with what the racers said happened, then scored everybody else 7th place.



    That's not even counting all the run-of-the-mill protests (deviating from line in last 200m, that wasn't me who crossed the yellow line, etc).

    As I said above, IMO all of these situations were eventually resolved in the correct way. Even the everybody-gets-7th-place one didn't really matter because the race was only worth points down to 6th.

    https://www.usacycling.org/results/?...&info_id=69331


    ... as long as I'm going on and on here, I have noticed that protest resolution is much faster and more pleasant if the racer makes a real effort to be patient and respectful. I'm sure I'm not telling anyone something they don't already know, but hey, I've got nothing better to write about while I'm sitting here trying to get my broken kid to fall back asleep.
    Last edited by globecanvas; 08-03-14 at 08:15 AM.

  12. #2612
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
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    Results getting skewed is fortunately not that often, but then again it does get confusing with multiple races on the course. Having been a promoter and having had the pleasure of listening to an irate official, irate riders and a chief referee completely unwilling to consider she was incorrect is the other side of that.
    It's life and sometimes it doesn't quite work out to what we envisioned upon first getting up. :-)

    I posted back a while about the Killington Stage Race ( late 80's editions ) where the results were so screwed up it was maddening.
    On the last stage, 3 riders up the road in sight of the uphill finish, I'm passing GC#6 who was 5-7 seconds ahead of me on GC and gaining more than 15 seconds on him at the line. They never got that corrected and instead much of the final GC stayed as it had been...

    It happens, I was so annoyed with it all but in hindsight it was just a race.
    Last edited by Moyene Corniche; 08-03-14 at 08:04 AM.
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  13. #2613
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    BTW, if you keep dominating tiny races like this one, you will be a Cat1 in no time.
    I have no shame. This is the plan.

    Not going to protest though I think I am in the right. It's no mistake the guy I was with was looking at me saying "did I just sprint on the wrong lap?" They were showing 1 to go, other guy at the table was literally ringing the bell to signify one to go.

    race flyer shows 75min for 2/3 http://www.ncnca.org/sites/default/f...0V2%20OKED.pdf
    my strava of the ride, they "ended" the race at 64min
    my "extra lap" came around to the finish at 75:30. https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/ride/253101213777

    When the clock says ~ one lap in time to go, the guy is holding a card that says 1 and the other guy there is ringing a bell... All signs point to "one to go."

    Long run it doesn't matter. Just super salty given the machinations that took place later in the p12.
    Last edited by Ygduf; 08-03-14 at 08:37 AM.

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  14. #2614
    Senior Member ShutUpLegs's Avatar
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    Iron Hill Twilight Crit
    Cat 3 qualifier: 20/30 is

    I tried to get in a break early and we had a good group with a gap, but to many attempts to bridge from the field and they did the work to real us in. My next plan was to go with 3 or 2 to go. The course was set up nicely for this with a chicane that you could take at full speed if you were ahead. Well with 3 to go I got caught towards the back and 3 guys went. 1 dropped off and the other two just held off the field. I got pinched by the same guy twice on the last lap and had to sprint from the back. Needed to be top 20 to qualify for the evening race. Made it by a tire length....literally.

    Evening race:
    Race was in downtown west chester 4 corner course that was very tight and so bumpy from road patches and potholes I felt like I was riding Paris Roubaix. I started at the back there was no room to move up. The third turn was slightly downhill, tight and bumpy. I just do not have the confidence in my cornering and that really hurt any chances I would have had. I just sat on the back for the remainder of the race and watched half the field drop off the back while I stayed there till the finish.

    Just wish I could get over this cornering thing
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  15. #2615
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    raced concord crit yesterday and was reminded that bike racing is really, really fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  16. #2616
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    If the lap card showed one and they were ringing the bell, then that should have been the final lap, not the finish. I don't know how anyone can screw that up.

    Now in a criterium it is always possible that they throw a prime with 2 to go but IMO that would go against one of the guiding principles of throwing primes...they should not affect the outcome of the race. They should not be used to assist a break or the field to catch a break. I know that some officials like to mess with our heads and do things like this. I think we all know who those officials are.

  17. #2617
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Wells Ave A/B this morning. First time racing with the new team! I had a good time. I didn't expect to do well, but I felt pretty damn good. That bike fit I just got clearly found me a bit more power, I definitely felt snappier. Considering that it opened up my hip angle quite a bit, it should have had that effect. Anyway, I jumped on a wheel and rode it up to an early break containing one of my new teammates. It's a bit amusing to be racing with them now, since I still don't have a matching kit, so we're the only ones who actually knew we had two riders in the break, not just one. Eventually the move came back and I eased back into the field. Despite feeling stronger, my endurance still isn't too great, so I spent most of the middle part of the race just hanging on in the back. This was made more difficult by the sketchy riding back there, which didn't make me want to get too close to some of those guys.

    Toward the end, I was feeling a bit recovered, unlikely to be able to do much myself, but capable of eating some wind to get one or two of our guys up to the front. So at 6 to go, I rode past one of our guys, said "all aboard!" and dragged him up the group to about 20th wheel. I should have taken up another ten wheels or so, but I was fairly cooked. It's a good thing we moved up, though, as shortly after I dropped him off there was a HUGE crash in the middle of the field, behind us. Twenty or thirty guys down, and a CAAD7 that ended up looking like a folding bike. Fortunately, the injuries didn't seem too bad, though one guy may have had a concussion - we didn't let him ride home. After that, the field lined up for a restart, but with only four laps to go and a lot of guys being pretty spooked from what was a very scary crash, there was a collective decision to just call it a race and give everyone a gold star for surviving.

    All in all, a good day, and I'm super-psyched to be racing for a team again. It really feels like I picked the right group. I'm also pretty excited for how this bike fit seems to be working out. My previous fit was pretty dysfunctional, I feel stronger, better balanced, and it seems potentially to be better on my injured knee than how I'd been riding before.

  18. #2618
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    good stuff @Ygduf! congrats on more top notch results, you should be on the top step!

  19. #2619
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    Patterson Pass Road Race Cat 4 35+

    The wind is usually a steady 20mph and this year it didn't disappoint. The main climb is straight into the wind. The climb takes about 20 minutes mostly cause it is into the head wind. From the top it is a non-technical descent down to Flynn road where there is a shorter climb, this time with a tail wind (5-8 min climb). Then you descend down to Altamont which is basically flat but with a tail wind where you can easily average 35mph. Finally the last leg is Midway road which has a nasty cross wind and a short 2 minute climb, quick descent and 2k flat run in to the finish. My pre-race plan was to be patient, force the pace on the second time up Patterson to make a selection, and then go for the final winning attack on Midway. I had 4 on our team in the race.



    First time up Patterson, Ben, a strong rider attacked with his teammate setting false tempo. I bridged up to him and we climbed over the top together. The moto ref told us we had 30 seconds at the top of Flynn. We kept the pace up and were able to hold the gap all the way to the end of the lap. My teammates were disrupting the chase.


    Second lap, Ben put in a lot of pace at the beginning of our second time up Patterson and I got dropped a bit for the first part of the climb. I clawed back and pulled us up the last 5 minutes of the climb. Down the descent onto flynn, I can see the group behind us, further back now, and shredded... looks like only 5 riders in the field are left. I'm starting to believe.


    Coming down the Flynn descent we approached the really sharp left hander. I put on the brakes, and the wind hits me from the left and the rear wheel is locked and skidding all over the place. I try and control it, but I just can't get it back and then I low side crash into the corner. Ouch! FUDGE FUDGE FUDGE. I was doing so WELL, IT WAS PERFECT. Get Up! Get Back On The Bike You Idiot! I get up, I get going, everything seems fine, bike is working, body is working, but my rear end feels pretty raw.


    Somehow I chase down Ben and we get back together on Altamont. We work together down Altamont and the moto ref tells us that there is 20 seconds to a single rider coming across the gap, and 20 more seconds to the field. We're going to do it!

    We come up to the final small hill on Midway, and I decide to give it one good pull to get us to the finish. At the top, I look behind for Ben, but he isn't there. Down the hill I try and measure my efforts as fudgy advised me, and keep it at 80%. Full power for the last flat 2k. Then I put on the gas and sprinted the last 200m. Turns out I had more then 10 seconds at the finish.



    Cat3 Points: 17 / 20

  20. #2620
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigo View Post
    Patterson Pass Road Race Cat 4 35+

    At the top, I look behind for Ben, but he isn't there. Down the hill I try and measure my efforts as fudgy advised me, and keep it at 80%. Full power for the last flat 2k. Then I put on the gas and sprinted the last 200m. Turns out I had more then 10 seconds at the finish.

    awesome! How's the damage today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    awesome! How's the damage today?
    It hurts, about a 4" square section of road rash. Sitting is a bit panful. Supposed to race Dunnigan on saturday, don't think I'm going to be up for it.

  22. #2622
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    @indigo, that's fantastic. congrats.

  23. #2623
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    Crash + win = double points!

  24. #2624
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    @indigo, that's fantastic. congrats.
    +1 Amazing...tough race.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #2625
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Nice work indigo! Congrats!

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