Inquisitor.

Finishing placement means different things to different people, and attempts to explain why people care about their position outside of the podium inherently leads to over generalization.


Virtually all of the races in Florida use timing chips, backed up by a finish line camera. I have little insight how the finances and logistics works for the promoter, but the convenience is attractive to racers. Shortly after the finish of a race, the results are posted for every rider with the elapsed time and gap to first place, listed to the thousandth of a second. Individual riders can use this information however they wish.


Additionally, timing chips have the potential to make races more spectator friendly. When I competed in a Half Ironman last summer, my family got real time updates to their phones when I went through the transitions, and multiple times during the bike and run showing my time and average speed for different legs of the race. That made things much more interesting for them than just standing around for hours on end just to get a glimpse of me as I crossed the finish line.


I believe that timing chip use in bicycle races will become much more common in time. While having season or lifetime bib numbers would be nice, I don't think that is going to solve the core issues.

gsteinb

While there are no doubt guys who have that idea, it's more indicative that they have that idea about all kinds of things and they're a-holes for a reason. Christ, guys do drugs to win cat 4 races. I don't think anyone here is saying that though. I hope that much is clear at least. People indeed race for a lot of reasons. I may win a lot, and I like to win, and winning no doubt is a manifestation of my particular approach…I'm in it for the approach, not the winning. So those guys that think that other way…well you ain't changing them. But it doesn't make some guy knowing whether he was was 27th or 28th anymore meaningful a metric in a corporate park crit that placed to 5th. Important metrics: a) I didn't crash b) I rode smart c) I rode hard d) I felt good (or not) e) I didn't crash in the parking lot f) I had fun (or not).

carpediemracing 

This is where my system would blow up. I think I'd need to use a proper database rather than a spreadsheet. I can use an imported database, sort of, but it bloats the spreadsheet to 10MB and slows things down.

I think you're right in the money=services etc. There's no excuse for not providing things for the racer.

Wylde06

Me and another guy, at the very back end of the field in the last race of the season last year, sprinted for not last place. I didn't come in last place.

Brian Ratliff

You should have a chat with our OBRA guys. We more or less have lifetime numbers (you have to re-request your number each year when you buy your license, but I've had the same number for three consecutive seasons now). The bib numbers are four numbers, the first indicating the category, the rest indicating the rider. Every few years you can change up the number system to expand it if needed. We still need pins, but we use high-quality cloth/lycra numbers that last the season and are stretchy so you don't get the parachute effect.

We use finishLynx (a slot camera), I believe, and provide finish placings to the entire field. You should talk to Kenji Sugahara (https://www.obra.org/contact.html), but I believe they take a finish picture of the field and use human eyeballs to pull out the numbers, which are pretty clear. Even with a huge field, the top 20 or 40 can be scored immediately following the race and the rest scored later.

In any case, OBRA takes pride in fast placings for everyone in the field. The top 10 or 20 are always available almost directly post-race, with the rest posted to the internet the following day. The chief reason for this is to allow mistakes in placing to be easier to correct. If you thought you got 10th, and you are listed in 40th, then you can challenge the result. This is different than seeing you are listed outside the top 10, not knowing if you were grossly mis-scored or got pipped at the line for the 10th spot. Particularly for cyclocross, where it is easy for the scorers to mistake laps, having a numerical placing makes it easy to see if a gross mistake has been made.

cmh

Obra does a great job of this, and it is OBRA that does it, if I'm not mistaken, it is not left to the promoter. The finish line camera use and officails are part of the fee to put on an OBRA race.

I'll also chime in that while I don't care if I take 20th vs. 21st place in any race, in races where I'm out of the money, I'm often glad to know if I was 20th instead of 40th. I wouldn't race any less if only in the money places were reported, but I like the info.

jaredcasper

As one who came down on the "I want to know I was in 47th place" side in this thread, I will also say that it is far from important enough that I wouldn't do a race if they didn't place the field. I would absolutely still do the race. I'd put it about at the same importance as having n+1 porta-potties instead of n. Yes, you want it, but it's certainly not a deal breaker.

ovoleg

this.

Creakyknees

I am pro-DNP or just post the money or top 10 or whatever.

Also, I noticed in the local cx races that the most aggressive elbowish riding was always back in the 20th-60th place zone.

carpediemracing 

Me throwing my bike in a similar situation. I'm a bit skewed because going about 5 mph and throwing the bike can do that. I looked it up. Apparently I beat the guy for 38th place.

hack

In NorCal, we have our Early Bird crit series which is 5 weekends of crit races in January. No official placing, but you can usually figure out if you're top ten or so. There wasn't a lack of turn out in the two races I attended. It made sense that if you didn't know where you placed when you crossed the finish line you were just in the pack. I am on the pro placing side, but agree that it isn't critical.

carpediemracing 

^ that reminds me. At the Tues Night races they score NO ONE. This is to prevent the kind of crap that caused major crashes there, including my first broken bone in 20-odd years of racing (a rider intentionally swung across the front of the field with half a lap to go).

Okay, so technically there's been exactly one guy causing major crashes there but still, the point is that no one gets scored. I've won the sprint out of my group to learn that we were the second or third group. In my lactic acid haze I missed the various winning moves. I've never won the race there to my knowledge. Okay except one rain shortened race where I raced like it was an unknown distance race on the track, basically raced like every lap was 2 to go.

Debusama

It’s beneficial when they combin fields. If I’m a Cat-3 trying to collect cat-2 upgrade points racing in the 1/2/3 field, 20[SUP]th[/SUP] overall might make me the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] cat-3, which would give me some points. I can see, however, why we wouldn't want to encourage people to sprint from the back of a pack for 47th place.

mattm

Actually I don't think that would give you any points - your placing among your category doesn't matter, it's the overall placing that does.

Unless they score the fields separately but race them combined - in which case you'd have a separate results sheet for cat 3.

jsutkeepspining

yeah in a 1/2/3 race you have to get 3rd overall to get the points, not 3rd cat 3. Makes sense, you're trying to prove that you canr ace with the 1/2s, not beat the remaining cat 3s.

Debusama

ah, yes, I worded that wrong it's probably not technically a "combined Field". In my area they race in the same pack but are "scored separately"
https://www.spokanerocketvelo.com/ind...de-van-palouse

waterrockets 

My last team had fun protesting new masters categorizations a few years ago. They decided to have an Open 40+ and a 3/4 40+, but race them together, scored separately. In the first race like this, we ended up placing in both categorizations, 1st or 2nd, and ended up with Cat 3s taking some overall prizes along with the category prizes, and I got two wins in one weekend. There were no more races with that 3/4 40+ nonsense after that.

Creakyknees

This issue has been raised again, in the local weeknighter, with a bit of a twist: when W4 are racing in a 4-5 field, some folks have suggested that it's good for the sport, new riders, development etc if the women get placings vs the other women instead of the usual weeknight deal of top 10 only.

I'm not opposed, and I'm told some promoters do that. But in a 40-50 rider field, for a weeknighter where you have just 2 officials and the "prize list" is 3 places for $50... is it even feasible?

My knee-jerk caveman biker response was: if you want to know your placing, get into the top 10... there are plenty of other reasons for a W4 to race every week besides the glory of know she beat another W4 for 37th place.

Am I a pig?

rideaz

Is there also a separate women's race? If so, I'd think that would be the opportunity to see where they stack up against other women?
I'd assume the women jump into the men's race to get some experience, bigger field and possibly a faster pace? If so, then they should be scored along with the men, IMO.
It would seem a hassle for a weeknighter to start separating categories within categories.

revchuck 

If it's a super barebones operation where entry fees are less than usual, then the race flyer should note that "only the top X places will be noted" or words to that effect, so that everyone knows it ahead of time. There are usually few enough ladies IME that they'll know how they fared against each other. OTOH, if a bunch of women show up, it'd be worth it for at least the first few places.

topflightpro

Generally speaking, yes, it is good for promoting the sport if the W4 are scored separately. It is even better if they are given their own race, but that often is not possible for evening crits.

But, if you are going to score the women separately, you also need to provide prizes for them. And for a lot of events, that becomes difficult.

All that said, it really should not be a huge problem for two race officials.

We had a Tuesday night crit series that was three races, C (4/5), B (3/4) and A (P/1/2/3). Women could race in their category or down a category, per USAC rules. But they were not scored separately. That event has two race officials.

My team puts on a race using the same course and same two officials, but our event is held on a Saturday. We have more races more fields. We do juniors races, where 10-14 are scored separately from 15-18, and we do a Masters 30+ and Masters 40+ race that is run combined but scored separately. The masters race usually has about 60 guys total, evenly split between the two groups. The race officials are able to do that with no problem.

zigmeister

Well, yeah, if you are going for a top 10, sure, have at it. Points mean something. And even maybe the way point upgrades are still handled, getting 20th place could mean something depending on the field size/placing. 1-2 points actually mean something and accumulate. Unlike the silly point reset situation of past when now you are back to ground zero.

45th, means nothing..no matter what size field as the thread title states.

EventServices

I was going to start a thread about women's racing, and I still might. There's a lot to say about it. But are there any women who come to the 33? They only make up 13% of the licensees in the U.S. (and that number has been consistent since the 1980s.)

But for a Tuesday Night Worlds event, you're putting more burden on your two-person officiating crew to handle a race within a race and scoring a separate finishing order. I think you should save that for the real races and let the weeknight race be a skill-sharpener. The last thing I want to have is a tired official staying until 9:30 on a week night getting burned out in the process.

Cleave

Our local Tuesday night worlds and less local Thursday night races now have timing chips (common between both races). This week was the first week for the system. As expected, there were a few glitches. Also (unfortunately) as expected, people outside the top 10 (points positions for overall series and series prizes) were complaining about getting misplaced. They used to only post top 10 -- picked from high speed video -- and now that they posted all positions from the chip system people complained. <sigh>

rideaz

There's not many on this forum.
I came to cycling from Triathlon (where the male-female participation rate seems more equal) and was really surprised how few women race or even do group rides here in AZ. I guess it's about the same nationwide?